Saturday, April 13, 2024

old pokemon blog

 Title: DEATH BATTLE Predictions: The Charmander-Line VS. The Agumon-Line

Thumbnail Image: http://vitor-aizen.deviantart.com/art/WarGreymon-vs-MegaCharizard-Y-Mega-vs-Mega-401053407 

Banner Image: http://img12.deviantart.net/699c/i/2013/315/3/6/my_mega_costume_by_zackamperez-d6tutnp.png 

Teaser Text: It's Pokemon VS. Digimon in the battle of the fire breathing lizard-dragon-dinosaur things!

TLDR: Thumbnail Art credited to Vitor-Aizen. Banner Art credited to Zackamperez.

 

Backstory

Charmander
http://i.imgur.com/uuYcDXr.png 

Height: 2’0 (Charmander), 3’7 (Charmeleon), 5’7 (Charizard), 5’7 (Charizard X), 5’7 (Charizard Y)


Charmander is classified as the ‘Lizard’ Pokemon in the Pokedex, and one of the generation 1 starters. They tend to inhabit mountainous areas, and seem to exhibit some degree of pack-like behavior. Its evolutions consist of Charmeleon and more importantly, Charizard, the warrior-like Flame Pokemon. Despite several dragon-like features, Charmander and Charmeleon are strictly Fire-type pokemon, while Charizard is Fire/Flying. Though the most recent Mega Evolution has given Charizard the dragon-status he deserves.


Charmander and his subsequent evolutions tend to be the starter of choice for the main heroes to a lot of Pokemon stories. Both Ash and Red for example have trained a Charmander at some point in their lives, with Red’s Charizard being the pokemon he started his journey with, and the one he eventually used to defeat and capture Mewtwo. While Charmanders are generally friendly, when fully evolved into Charizards they’re warrior-like and very aggressive; ready to fight whoever is the strongest and prove they’re stronger.


Agumon

http://i.imgur.com/AFNGVdi.gif 


Height: 3 ft (Agumon), probably around 30 feet (Greymon, MetalGreymon), probably around 10 feet (WarGreymon) 


Agumon, the reptile-like Digimon technically starts its Digivolution line with the ‘Fresh’ Digimon Botamon, eventually becoming Koromon before then permanently becoming Agumon. Several different evolutionary lines for the mini-Tyrannosaurus exist, but most people consider the Greymon line the ‘definitive’ one (and is the line that will be used for this fight).


Agumon has been the Digimon of several different characters in the Digimon series, the most well-known individual probably being Taichi ‘Tai’ Kamiya. Like his partner Tai, Agumon is meant to signify being courageous, and caring. He can be somewhat brash, though not to the extent his partner is, often acting as the more reasonable one among the 2. Apparently, this reasonableness of his paid off. By the end of the series Agumon and Tai became United Nations diplomats for the Digital World… No we’re not joking.



Trainers


Red

http://i.imgur.com/LrELFSD.png 


As far as eleven year-old kids go, Red’s feats as a Pokemon trainer are practically unmatched.  

Much like subsequent playable characters within the Pokemon franchise, Red is portrayed as a prodigy capable of defeating much older and far more experienced trainers. During the events of Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue, he defeated the crime syndicate known as Team Rocket, the Eight Gym Leaders, the Elite Four and the Champion Blue of the Kanto region in just a matter of days. And just a few years after becoming the Champion of the Kanto region, Red journeyed to Mt. Silver to become the greatest trainer in the Johto region. 


While he initially took on the role of a silent protagonist in the very first Pokemon games, Red was portrayed as a more typical young child in the anime mini-series Pokemon Origins. Though driven by a strong desire to win, Red’s ambition never overcame his moral code. This was best demonstrated in his battle with Giovanni, where he initially declined to take his enemy’s badge on the grounds that he couldn’t accept such an honor from the boss of Team Rocket. In response, Giovanni disbanded his crime syndicate so that Red could accept his badge. 


He also has a similar, albeit more cocky personality in the pokemon adventures manga. The manga has similar storylines to the ovas and games (overall), though Red has the distinction of being one of the few humans trusted and willingly led by Mewtwo in a few stories.


In terms of equipment, Red can carry several helpful items for his Pokemon... And there’s is a lot of them. There’s Flutes, Potions, Status condition healing items, Revives, Ethers, Vitamins, Wings, Drinks, Herbal medicine, Berries, Mulch and Apricorns just to name a few. It is also worth noting that all of these items can be used during the heat of battle.


Tai

http://i.imgur.com/jxgWCLS.gif 


Bearing the Crest of Courage, Taichi ‘Tai’ Kamiya acted as the happy-go-lucky leader of the DigiDestined during the events of Digimon Adventure. Though he has matured considerably since his first adventures, Tai was reckless and didn’t always think about the consequences of his actions. But despite his impulsiveness, Tai managed to overcome several obstacles during his journey in the Digital World and eventually learned how to become the leader that his friends needed.

 

As is typical of an anime protagonist, Tai values his friends above all else and won’t hesitate to put everything on the line whenever they’re in danger. Though Tai offers his partner little in the way of strategy, Agumon depends on him to reach his more powerful forms. Using his Digivice, Tai can convert his emotions into raw power, thus granting Agumon the ability to Digivolve into more powerful forms. 


It is questionable if the Digivice could be destroyed as there was no real stress test for it. But it is most likely possible since they are electronic devices and many cases saw the DigiDestined trying to grab said device when exposed. Also in Frontier, it has been shown to be taken apart and messed with internally. Although it’s more or less established that the power to Digivolve Digimon stems from the kids’ internal power, while the Digivice is simply there to give them something to focus that power with.

Evolutions

Charmander

http://i.imgur.com/PcYDcqc.png 

Art credited to Andie200.


The entire Charmander line is comprised of Fire Type Pokemon. This Pokemon type takes ½ damage from Fire based attacks and 2x damage from Water, Rock and Ground type. It evolves into a Charmeleon at Level 16 and Charizard at Level 36. Charizard has a dual typing of Fire/Flying, with Flying type taking 2x damage from Electric, Ice and Rock type moves and ½ damage from Bug, Fighting and Grass type moves. With Charizardite X, Charizard can Mega-Evolve into Mega Charizard X, a Fire/Dragon Type Pokemon. Dragon takes ½ damage from Electric, Fire, Water and Grass type moves and 2x damage from Dragon, Fairy and Ice type moves. With Charizardite Y, Charizard can Mega-Evolve into Mega Charizard Y. In Pokemon Origins, Red’s Charizard has shown the following moves.


  • Growl: A normal move that decreases the opponent's Attack by one stage. 

  • Scratch: A normal attack that scratches.

  • Ember: A fire attack that has a 10% chance of burning the target.

  • Flamethrower:  A stronger fire attack that has a 10% chance of burning the target.

  • Mega Punch: A normal attack that punches.

  • Mega Kick: A normal attack that Kicks.

  • Seismic Toss: A fighting type Move that inflicts damage equal to the user's level.

  • Fire Spin: A fire attack that traps their opponent in a column of flames.

  • Fire Blast: A stronger fire attack that has a 10% chance of burning the target.

  • Slash: A normal attack that scratches but has a high chance of critical hit.

  • Swift: A normal attack that never misses (or at least has a high chance of not missing).


Keep in mind, these are simply the moves shown in Origins. Being a trained Pokemon, Charizard has the potential of being able to perform any of the moves it can learn naturally as well as any TM or HM that it is capable of learning, which you can read here because it is a lot. There is also the Special Abilities that the Pokemon could gain that we do not know which would be used. They are…


  • Blaze: the power of Fire Type Moves will increase by 1.5x if the user is a third or less of their full health.

  • Solar Power: During harsh sunlight, Solar Power increases the Special Attack by 1.5x, but the Pokémon loses 1/8 of its maximum HP at the end of each turn.

  • Tough Claws: As Charizard X, it boosts the power of contact moves by 33%.

  • Drought: As Charizard Y, it summons a harsh sunlight as soon as it enters the battle. It last for five turn and can be negated by heavy rain, extremely harsh sunlight, or a mysterious air.


Agumon

http://i.imgur.com/0YBTcWT.png 

Agumon first starts out as Koromon, an In-Training Digimon. Its only attack is Bubble Blow, which doesn’t really do anything significant. Agumon is a Rookie Level Digimon and even before Digivolving it has a lot of options for attacks.

 

  • Pepper Breath: Spits flame breath from its mouth to attack the opponent.

  • Claw Attack: Attacks with claws.

  • Spirit Fire: Shoots a small blast of fire from its mouth.

  • Cross Fire: Gathers power and then bites the foe and slashes them with claws.

  • Battle Hawk

  • Claw Uppercut

  • Claw Attack or Mach Jab


While it can also evolve into other Digimon (including stronger versions of the one going to be talked about), the most likely to be used is Greymon. Greymon is a Champion Level Digimon and is a lot bigger and stronger than Agumon.


  • Nova Blast: Spews ultra-high-temperature flames or a flame shot from its mouth to reduce everything to ashes.

  • Great Horns Attack: Impales the opponent with its horns.

  • Grey/Great Tooth

  • Horn Impulse: Attacks the opponent with its horns.

  • Tail Crash: Slams the opponent with its tail.

  • Fire Wall: Spews out an encroaching wall of flames.


From the Champion Level, Greymon can evolve into other Digimon (including a SkullGreymon). The most likely to be used is MetalGreymon, an Ultimate Level Digimon. And again, it is a lot bigger and stronger than the previous form.


  • Mega Claw: Launches its tethered Trident Arm to slash or wrap up enemies.

  • Giga Blaster: Fires organic missiles from a hatch inside its chest.

  • Metal Arm

  • Metal Slash

  • Terra Destroyer: Launches an enhanced version of its "Giga Blaster" attack.

  • Metal Slash II: Slashes with its claw.

  • Powerful Flame: Unleashes a wave of fire from its claw.


Third verse, same as the previous ones. WarGreymon is the ‘final form’ of this evolution line. While the form is smaller, it is a lot more powerful than the previous form. And unlike the other forms, Agumon can Warp Digivolve directly into WarGreymon.


  • Terra Force: Takes all of the energy within the atmosphere and concentrates it into one spot then fires it as an extremely dense, high-temperature energy shot.

  • Great Tornado: Spins at tremendous speed like a tornado and launches itself at the enemy.

  • Brave Shield: Uses its "Brave Shield" to defend.

  • Mega Claw: Slashes using its "Dramon Killer" gauntlets.

  • Ultra Tornado: Wraps itself in a giant tornado of flames, sending smaller tornadoes outwards at enemies.


Equipment

Charmander

http://i.imgur.com/PtwgmLo.png 


It is unknown what Charizard’s partner would be allowed to bring into battle if he’s even allowed to bring anything at all. But what we do know is that Red and Charizard will have access to the Mega Stone. It is an item held by Charizard that allows it to Mega-Evolve into more powerful forms. As long as there’s a strong bond between trainer and Pokemon, Charizard’s partner can use the Key Stone to activate his Mega Stone. With either Charizardite X or Charizardite Y, Red can make Charizard become Mega Charizard X or Mega Charizard Y. Once Mega Evolved, it will only change back when it faints or the battle ends. With the exceptions of health, a Mega Pokemon will have different stats and abilities.


Agumon

http://i.imgur.com/FvC6NK1.jpg 


Agumon technically does not have any kind of equipment. But as it Digivolves from one form to another, its arsenal gradually begins to increase. As MetalGreymon he wields the Trident Arm, a powerful cybernetic limb capable of launching towards foes with extreme force. It can also wrap and bind foes. In addition, MetalGreymon and WarGreymon possess Chrome Digizoid Armor, an exceptionally strong material derived from Huanglong Ore and is considered to be the strongest metal in the Digital World. And for additional protection, WarGreymon relies on the Brave Shield, which is typically divided into two pieces and kept on his back like a pair of wings. When they become one they form a powerful defense. But when WarGreymon needs to dish out some damage he brings out his Dramon Killers, large claw-shaped gauntlets that are especially effective against Dramon-species Digimon. 



Weaknesses

  

Charmander

http://i.imgur.com/nfJKLbt.png 


A Pokemon needs their trainer to fight at their best. Without them, they are less likely to use the tactics or strategies needed to defeat stronger foes. In addition there is Charizard’s tail, which when extinguished, will kill Charizard outright. Being a Fire-Flying type, Charizard (and Mega Charizard Y) is weak to Electric, Rock, and Water Type Attacks. However, as the Dragon-Fire type Mega Charizard X, it becomes weak to Rock, Dragon and Ground type attacks. 


Agumon

http://i.imgur.com/NskKkNq.jpg 


Outside of helping him Digivolve, Tai is not that helpful to Agumon. He only seems to be able to do something with the Digivice when there are others nearby to assist him. It is unknown if Tai could produce such power on his own. In addition, Agumon needs Tai to maintain his higher forms. Agumon and all other forms also have a weakness to Earth Elemental Attacks. The power needed to maintain the higher forms is not infinite. If the other forms has exhausted too much energy, he will revert back to Agumon.



Feats


In case you were wondering…


Since we don’t actually know the specific details involving Charizard, we decided to list notable feats from every notable version of the Pokemon. We think most will agree that the fight is much more balanced this way. Plus, covering all possible scenarios makes forming a reasonable verdict a hell of alot easier. Though bear in mind we can’t promise that all of these feats will play a significant role in the fight. 


Charmander

http://i.imgur.com/vPeJwcs.gif  


Ash’s Charizard



Red’s Charizard


Alain’s Charizard

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEbRDHPIIPo


In General

  • According to the Pokedex, Charizard can burn through stone. While Pokedex entries aren’t always the most reliable source of information, DEATH BATTLE used this feat in a past fight. Based on this ability, Charizard’s fire breath should be capable of reaching temperatures of at least 2100 fahrenheit. Likely much higher.

  • According to the Pokedex, can melt glaciers at 10, 000 tons quickly

  • According to the Pokedex, can fly up to 4, 600 feet


Agumon

http://i.imgur.com/bFXEjey.gif 


Agumon 


Greymon 


MetalGreymon 

firepower is equal to a nuclear warhead.


WarGreymon


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3AvtpRCt2s

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKw0q1fejZU 

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBTxosmRijA 

  • Successfully dodged several blows from over a million copies of Diaboromon despite hampered movement. Physically endured countless more attacks in the same battle.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQS1PhLVC5c



Conclusion


Charmander 

http://i.imgur.com/MCyl0wz.png 

Advantages


  • Charizard has a wider variety of moves to chose from, giving him more options in a fight.

  • Charizard has a fairly reliable way to recover HP in battle with Roost

  • Charizard has several buffing attacks and debuffing attacks.

  • Charizard is Resistant to fire based attacks, which is what the majority of the Augmon line is based around.

  • Red is likely smarter than Tai is and has pulled off some notable strategies in the manga and anime while in direct danger. Example: dive bombing Mewtwo through his attack and using Pikachu to capture him with a Master Ball.

  • Red has survived a decent amount of direct assaults from Pokemon attacks in the manga (Thunder, Psywave, many body blows). He’s even been frozen solid for more than 2 weeks before.


Disadvantages


  • Charizard is much less intelligent than the Agumon line and will have his tactics hampered if Red goes down in the fight.

  • Likewise, Charizard can’t use Mega Evolution without the help of Red.

  • Physical abilities and destructive power pales in comparison to the Greymon line’s 

  • Mega Charizard X might be especially vulnerable to WarGreymon’s Dramon Killers

  • A trained Charizard is more reliant on verbal commands than a Digimon is towards their partner

  • Digimon are less straightforward in terms of how their evolutions and moves work (being able to Warp-Digivolve to their most powerful form), which may make it harder for Red to strategize in this battle.


Agumon

http://i.imgur.com/ElozG77.jpg 

Advantages


  • Agumon is much more intelligent than Charizard, being able to think up more complicated plans on his own.

  • Agumon’s various forms come with more weapons and defensive equipment than Charizard has in base.

  • In terms of physical abilities, Wargreymon outperforms Charizard in all areas. Being faster, stronger and much more durable.

  • WarGreymon’s Dramon Killers might be super-effective against Mega Charizard X’s typing

  • WarGreymon is resistant to fire based attacks, which comprises the large majority of Charizard’s attacks.


Disadvantages


  • If exhausted enough he can revert back to prior forms, and perhaps even to Koromon.

  • In Tai’s absence, Agumon can’t access his more powerful forms. 

  • If Tai’s emotions run more negative it can also result in more uncontrollable alternate forms like SkullGreymon.

  • Vulnerable to Earth based attacks, which some Ground moves can deliver.


Extra Links for Agumon and Charmander

 

Verdicts


Samuraispartan7000

http://i.imgur.com/RezpUYx.jpg 


While Charmander and Agumon are roughly on the same level in terms of power and abilities, there’s a huge power gap between their most powerful forms. Even though Mega Charizard X has gone toe to toe with a few powerful legendaries, he’s lost the majority of those fights. While there are instances of Charizard defeating an Articuno and a Mewtwo, he had a clear type advantage in the former and a severely weakened opponent in the latter (Mewtwo had already fought Red’s Articuno and at least four other Pokemon). 


WarGreymon on the other hand, was able to claim multiple victories over opponents that could rival Pokemon’s most powerful legendaries. MetalSeadramon and Machinedramon defeated the Sovereigns, extremely powerful god-like Digimon responsible for protecting the Digital World. WarGreymon was able to destroy both of these powerful Dark Masters. And with the help of his allies, WarGreymon defeated the immensely powerful Apocalymon, a being capable of destroying entire dimensions in a single attack. Along with great offensive power, WarGreymon is extremely tough and defensive. He was able to endure a simultaneous attack from over a MILLION Mega Level Diaboromon. While fighting continent-level Pokemon like Primal Groudon is impressive, Mega Charizard X doesn’t come anywhere close to matching a durability feat like that. Putting feats aside, WarGreymon is also much smarter and more heavily equipped than Mega Charizard X. WarGreymon’s Dramon Killers, weapons specifically designed to take down dragon-type enemies, could prove fatal for Mega Charizard X, a Fire/Dragon type Pokemon.


I’ve come across several Digimon vs Pokemon themed match-ups like Lucario vs Renamon and BlackWarGreymon vs. Mewtwo. Nine times out of ten, the digimon is the one that comes out on top. Overall, the digital monsters of the Digiverse are leaps and bounds above anything in the Pokeverse. This fight is certainly no exception. The winner is WarGreymon. 


AkumaTh

http://i.imgur.com/6TiGUQi.png 


Personally, I would have put Marcus and his Agumon in this Death Battle for the sole factor of seeing Marcus beating up Charizard. As for this match, Agumon has one big weak point: Tai. Kill the trainer, while having no guidance, is still a Charizard or higher until the fight is over. Kill Tai, and you pretty much cut off the source of the Digivolving. No more Greymon or above, you’ll just have Agumon. If it came to Agumon Vs Charizard, I do not see the little guy winning.


The thing is Tai has to die in order to have that specific fight. I’m pretty sure Greymon and above is bigger than a Charizard. Maybe slower than one outside its humanoid forms, but still a lot bigger. Not to mention, Charizard has to be commanded to attack Tai. The chances of that is pretty slim and even if done so has a lot of Digimon between Human and Pokemon. If you need to exploit a weakness to win, you’re most likely not going to win.


One thing that concerns me is specifically how they’re gonna treat types. Sure, the Dramon Killers work well for Dramon Type Digimon, but does that translate to Dragon Type Pokemon? Also, since those weapons are made of some sort of metal, would they be considered a Steel Type attack (something that is not as effective on Fire Type Pokemon). Or considering they’re Digital Monsters, like a certain Pokemon that is also Digital, is Agumon and all his higher forms considered a Normal Type?


Either way, I’m still siding with Digimon. Even with all my concerns, Greymon and up is bigger and stronger. Wargreymon and higher could also be as fast if not faster than Charizard and up. Even if becoming more metal means he is a Steel Type, he would still be strong enough to do significant damage. 


Ultraguy

http://i.imgur.com/zJud2HH.jpg 

So you might look at his match and at first glance think it’s a stomp in the favor of Augumon.


However upon further inspection it’s clear that it’s actually….. Still a huge stomp in the favor of Agumon.


To be honest it’s almost not even fair. Metal Greymon alone practically carries the punch of multiple nuclear warheads, and Wargreymon easily contributed to a blast that dwarfed the size of the mountain. That’s not even bringing in the dodging and surviving blasts from millions of Dioboramon feat, which even from common sense perspective would easily place Wargreymon far above Charizard in terms of speed and durability.


Then there’s the fact that the general scale of the threats faced in the Digimon universe tend to be consistently higher than the Pokemon universe (world-universe endangering) and the fact said characters are always fighting to the death, rather than sport. 


Next you have the obvious realization that Red is a completely liability in this fight. He pretty much NEEDS to give Charizard verbal orders at a close range, while Tai doesn’t, meaning he has to be up close to the action (where he’s more likely to get hit and killed). The fact he has to verbally shout every command also means there’s much more delay in terms of action compared to the more autonomous Agumon. Shouting commands also gives away his next move to his opponent, which can be easily capitalized on by the smarter Agumon. The mechanics of Digimon are also a lot different than pokemon, so I doubt Red’s strategic skill would do him as good here anyway.


Additionally regardless of how you interpret the typing for both series (I would say Agumon would be closer to Fire/Dragon rather than Fire/Steel by the way), It’s pretty obvious you can make at least A FEW clear cut assumptions. In the Digimon series itself the Agumon line tends to be resistant to fire attacks. That’s a very clear cut interpretation you can corelate to Pokemon very easily to make the assumption that the Augumon line will bassically resist the majority of Charizard’s fire moves. Likewise I’ll find it hard to believe that Wargreymon’s weapons meant to be super effective against Dragon Digimon, aren't going to be brought up as super effective against Charizard X. Outside of that I think the rest of how both characters react to certain elemental attacks from a defensive standpoint should be considered, but those two very clear cut points above are really the only thing you need to acknowledge to just f@#k over Charizard.


Finally there’s the fact……..that THIS ENTIRE BLOG IS SKEWED TOWARDS CHARIZARD TO GIVE HIM THE GREATEST CHANCE! We used multiple Charizards to scale Red’s Charizard, while didn’t really do that for the Agumon-line because that would make him broken. We acknowledge usable items from Pokemon, but not the Digimon games. 


Did you know Wargreymon has alternate even more powerful forms he can access in the games or other media? We didn’t mention those, but we mentioned both Mega-evolutions for Charizard. The Agumon line can learn many more moves in the games than what we listed here, though we only brought up Charizard’s other learned or taught moves.


We mentioned all 4 of Charizards abilities, even though he can only really have 1 at a time. However we didn’t mention Wargreymon basically has an equivalent in the games, where he can equip 4 at once that heighten his stats even more and more or less NULLIFY FIRE ATTACKS. 


Honestly it says a lot when we bassically make a super composite for Charizard and then remove or don’t mention a ton of stuff for Augmon, and Charizard still comes up short.


I’m sorry I love Charizard but he’s not winning this fight.


LousyTactician

http://www.screwattack.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/300x300/profile_photos/68134/profile-photo-68134-1445181207.jpg 


While I could see an argument that Charmander and Agumon are roughly on-par with each other, Agumon gets way more out of his evolutions, and pretty much outclasses the Charmander-line on all fronts, durability especially.


Some have mentioned that Red will need to give commands to Charizard, but I personally think people are making a bigger deal of that than it actually is. As far as I'm concerned this is an instance of talking being a free action. Red himself is also far more strategic and capable as a trainer than Tai, and definitely won’t be the detriment in this fight. Unfortunately, his strategies also won’t be enough to turn the tide of this fight. The best bet the Charmander-line has would be to scale one of Charizard's Mega-Evolutions to some of the legendaries he fights.


This specific instance of scaling, however, is iffy as all hell, and not practical. Even ignoring that PIS is a thing that is very much in favor of Charizard, almost all of Charizard’s victories against legendaries have been with help. In other instances he’s just flat-out lost even with that help, and it's pretty blatant whatever legendary that defeated him still had plenty of fight left in it (Alain’s Charizard’s fight with Groudon).


Regardless of how much energy WarGreymon contributed to the now well-known Mt. Fuji blast, he still pretty clearly survived the attack at ground zero. That alone practically seals the deal. I have trouble believing Mega Charizard could do the same. Charizard’s mega-forms are powerful, but one would debatably be a huge detriment thanks to WarGreymon’s Dramon Killers, and the other just isn’t powerful enough to make a difference. Even worse is no interpretation of what WarGreymon’s ‘type’ is would give Charizard a big type advantage. He’s either Steel/Dragon, or Fire/Dragon.


My money’s on the creature with too many miscellaneous bits of metal slapped onto his character design.


Guest Verdicts


Burkion

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/17/83/73/1783738e395e822f0f17e890862015bd.jpg 


Let's get this out of the way. With WarGreymon at play, Agumon is going to win. There is no dancing around this, no question or debate. It's Thor VS Raiden all over again, the two are similar but one is just simply far more powerful and better at what they both do, with even more powers and abilities. But that's fine- that's more than fine in fact! Charizard is not a powerful Pokemon, at least not as far as the truly powerful ones go. Charizard is a great Pokemon, but he's never been one of the all time strongest. 


This result comes down to, in a fashion, what the two series are about. Pokemon, especially where this Charizard hails from, is about raising friends, friendly sportsmanship, battles of skill for glory. Charizard rarely gets into life or death battles and is not meant to because that's not the point of Pokemon. Digimon, especially the anime where WarGreymon comes from, is a very different beast. There from episode 1 on, it is a kill or be killed situation, with evil or feral Digimon out to eat or destroy the heroes. The stakes are far higher. Pokemon is about catching them all and being the best at this sport- Digimon is about the fate of two worlds, about stopping great evils, and fighting horrible monsters. 


That isn't to say that Pokemon are completely outclassed by Digimon. The issue is one of escalation. Weak Pokemon tend to be comparable to Rookie level Digimon- Agumon is about as strong as Charmander or Charmeleon. Strong Pokemon tend to be comparable to Champion level Digimon- Charizard and Greymon are extremely similar, and they alone would be a good fight. But then the further levels of the Digimon's power hierarchy kick in- Ultimate and Mega Level. While Pokemon contain their own Mega Evolution, it is just a boost to their current form, and does not make them overall greater and more powerful. That is where Agumon out paces Charmander- Mega Charziard is still roughly on par with Greymon, and is completely left behind by Greymon's two further evolutions, each leagues more powerful.


This is completely disregarding if the Dramon Destroyers will be effective against Mega Charizard, and bypassing the discussion of feats and abilities, because by this point the picture should be clear. I figure with the others covering the feats, I can cut to the heart of why War Greymon is stronger than Charizard- why that's OK and nothing to be upset about. Both series do what they set out to do excellently, and have forged a legacy that has stretched for many, many years, and will continue for many more. Isn't that the best thing of all?


Masuru

 

http://forums.screwattack.com/download/file.php?avatar=64225_1449884628.jpg


First of all, I would like to say thanks for inviting me to the blog. When I joined the forum I was  only thinking of giving my opinion in some aspects. I didn't expect I would be invited to the blog, so I feel honored to have been given the chance.


On to the topic: When it comes to comparing Digimon and Pokemon as a world (the only way that, I think, it should be compared since as franchises and concepts they are vastly different one from the other, besides the "Mon" part of course) the main difference becomes evident the more you learn about both lores and creatures: The Digital World is definitely, not a friendly place. Sure, it does have cute creatures made out of Legos or plushies, little chickens in their eggshell trying to become swordsmens... Heck, even cute girls dressed up as catholic nuns training a small dragon to become some kind of Knight-Dragon-Jesus (yeah, the Digital World is a strange place, I know).


But below that cute (and maybe a little bit goofy) exterior, what do we have? Over 1000+ monsters with all kind of appearances and powers going at each other’s throats for survival and evolution. Remember the chicken? Well, when it stops evolving it will become a God of Destruction, that's exactly the type of world Digimon has. Oh, but you don't have to trust me when I mention all those obscure Digimon, it's only necessary to remember your own childhood, more specifically Digimon Tamers and the Digimon in it. Remember how the cute and friendly Guilmon became a rabid dragon with acidic spit that was destroying the Digital World by merely existing? Yup, okay, hold on that though and let's move on~


The point of that long introduction is simple: To show, in context, just what kind of a beast a Digimon can really be. The only thing that has been keeping the franchise from being as dark and brutal as it can be it's the fact that it is being marketed as a children's show, something that Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth and Digimon Adventure Tri are trying to change by moving the demography to teen -minimum-. But even so, the monsters are not that harmless as they would appear to be. 


Even "Baby" and "Child"(Rookie) Digimon can demonstrate some dangerous powers like acid (bubbles) or discharging 1MV of electricity in one attack, and that's just the tip of an iceberg of what they can do (or take as punishment when fighting each other). When they go into "Adult" (Champion) things start getting crazy, showing monsters that are not only bigger and tougher, but some that can do OP things such as creating pocket dimensions or controlling time. By the time we get to Perfect (Ultimate) and Ultimate (Mega) levels, the Digimon "standards" are beyond the roof, making the lower levels seem like a joke as the creature keeps evolving into "Godhood" (in a literal sense, sometimes). 


The Digimon power (and level)scale is so silly that it’s not uncommon to see the cutest Ultimate Digimon going toe on toe with an Eldritch Abomination just because they are on the same level or the cute one is a level beyond. For an example, let's go back to Digimon Adventure and remember how that little cat Digimon was able to topple five humongous-sized monsters like dominoes. Of course, when I say all of this I'm not trying to imply that the Pokemon world is fluffy and weak. Actually, it can get just has dark with the correct plot and writing, but compared to the Digimon (creatures)... Well, let's just say that barring some special cases (like the D/P/Pt Trio, for example, which are heavyweight in concept and power) what in Pokemon you call a "Legendary" in Digimon we call it "Just your average monster". That's just the overwhelming difference that exist between the two, for better or for worse, take your pick.


This is exactly what happens in this match. It's not that Charizard is weak or that Greymon is an unstoppable killing machine. The "problem" is that both series operate on whole different levels (or scales, if you want) and there's just no comparison between the two. Greymon, both as an species and as a character (Taichi's partner) has battled (and won) against opponents that have shown powers beyond what Charizard (or most Pokemon) have done in their life and has received just as much punishment. Charizard on the other hand has shown power that, while it can be better that what most Child Digimon can do (excluding the OP ones like Lucemon), it doesn't hold a candle against the vast number of techniques or powers that most Adult Digimon (Greymon's "equals") can handle. Of course, I wouldn't put the nail in Charizard's coffin so fast either, and that's because we don't know yet how are they planning to balance things out in this DB. There are two possible scenarios in my opinion, which are:


1- They keep it as in the preview [(Mega) Charizard (X) vs Greymon]: While I wouldn't like to watch a battle in which only one side is allowed to go full potential, I can understand that this is the more "fair" scenario. I still give Greymon the win on this one, but I'm more than willing to admit that Mega Zard has chances of prevailing and stealing the win, but by a really close margin


2- They go all out [(Mega) Charizard (X) vs (Metal/War)Greymon]: I'm sorry for Pokemon fans (Myself being one also) but I do have to ask just what Deity did Charizard piss off so much to deserve what is going to happen to him (Arceus or Yggdrasil, pick your belief). Just MetalGreymon is (officially) confirmed to have the power of a nuclear warhead in its signature attack (Giga Blaster) along with a Chrome Digizoid (one of the strongest metal in the Digimon universe) arm, something that Charizard is not a match for. And then there's WarGreymon, which can (and does) make its pre-evolution feel like a joke in comparison not only in raw power, but also in its arsenal: CD Armor and weapons, a Special attack capable of going toe-on-toe against an Absolute Zero attack and claws specifically made for killing dragons. Nope, not just "-dramon Digimon" any dragon, which Zard X became after years of asking for it... Aaah, sweet irony.


Unless there's some unknown feat of Mega Charizard that I don't know of, there's no way he can prevail against what Metal (and War) Greymon can do to him, which is pretty much what he does on a daily basis to other Digimon its level (or lower), and he's not even a top-tier Ultimate Digimon, there are a LOT that are much stronger than him (I, for one, would have loved to see the ShineGreymon line in battle, Burst Mode included). To quote one of the (multiple) comparisons that were made in the topic: "In Pokemon, an Absolute Zero attack (Sheer Cold) is an OHKO, in Digimon...Well, that's MetalGarurumon's (among others) default technique, something that WarGreymon has been shown to handle easily with a single counter"


3- They allow Game mechanics and give WarGreymon the Omegamon/Omnimon form (which it can go to without MetalGarurumon in "All-star Rumble") or access to VictoryGreymon/WarGreymon X: This won't happen, but just in case it does I would say that this scenario counts as (fictional) animal cruelty, hilariously mean animal cruelty.


Tl;dr: The Digimon side has this in the bag, but there's a chance that Zard can win if Greymon doesn't go beyond Adult/Champion (although I can't think of how he can, I'ld probable be convinced by the post-battle arguments). However, if MetalGreymon or WarGreymon enter the fight, may Arceus have mercy on Zard's soul, cause Yggdrasil won't.
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