Link vs Cloud Q and A(Feat Ultra and DJTiki)

 "The following is the opinion of only those involved in its writing. It is not officially endorsed by Rooster Teeth Productions or necessarily representative of the views of the Death Battle staff at large."

List of Various Counters for Both Characters

Link

Cloud has fire, ice, and lightning spells: 

Fire

• Flamebreaker Armor prevents burning. 

• Chilly Elixir decreases heat damage. 

• Fireproof Elixir grants immunity to extreme heat/catching fire.

• Blue Holy Ring prevents damage from Zora Fire

Lightning

• Rubber Armor reduces electrical attack damage

• Thunder Helm deflects lightning-based attacks 

• Electro Elixir increases electric resistance

• Green Holy Ring prevents electric damage

Ice

• Snowquill Armor increases cold resistance

• Spicy Elixir increases cold resistance

Cloud has multiple healing spells:

Link has 

• Heart Ring 2 heals Link via movement

• Life Healing spell

• Various food items and potions can heal

Cloud can auto revive upon death with final attack materia+revive/phoenix summon

• Mipha’s Grace spell can heal upon death

• Fairies can revive Link

Cloud can use Haste spells to increase his speed

• Link can use the reverse Song of Time to slow down the flow of time

• Bunny Hood increases movement speed

• Flurry Rush increases reactions

Cloud has the Wall, Reflect and Shield spells

• The Master Sword can dispel magic barriers in multiple games (such as Wind Waker).

Cloud has a Time Stop spell 

• Link can also stop time with the Stasis Rune

• The Phantom Sword can also stop time when using a phantom orb

• The Clock power-up in Zelda can stop time

Cloud has a Sleep spell

• The All-Night Mask/Fierce Deity Mask prevents Link from sleeping

Cloud has Toad/Mini transmutation spells

• The Master Sword could dispel dark magic from Zant that kept Link trapped in wolf form in TP

• The Triforce prevents some shapeshifting to an extent under the influence of the Twilight Realm

• The Moon Pearl in ALTTP prevents transmutation under the Dark World/Triforce’s power

• The Four Swords could undo Zelda’s transmutation into stone during the Minish Cap

• Song of Healing counters transmutation (it’s used on Link to undo his deku transformation curse). The ocarina can also morph into an instrument suitable for him to play when changing species in Majora’s mask.

• Ravio’s Bracelet undid Link’s transformation into a painting

• The Elzo cap can alter physical size(albeit mostly at specific locations)

Cloud has Silence spells: 

• The Master Sword can dispel magic even granted by something like the Triforce and much of his magic comes from equipment. 

• The Master Sword can also seal magic power (it did so to Ganon in Wind Waker), so it should logically have the ability to undo similar seals on magic power.

• Link can counter a sealing curse from Red Bubbles via healing potions, the Song of Storms, or the Whisp Ring. These curses generally prevent sword and item usage, which is somewhat similar to silence(this sealing would include the magical ability magic armor in Wind Waker).

Cloud has various misc spells that manipulate the mind (Berserk, Confusion, Charm, etc)

• The Master Sword can dispel magic even granted by something like the Triforce 

• Link’s mental state wasn’t heavily impacted by Dark World, which could turn people into mindless monsters or alter normal wildlife to be vicious

• Magic Powder can be used to pacify an organism's mental state. Link could likely use this on himself.

• Link can spend long periods of time in the Lost Woods without losing his mind and turning into a monster in ocarina

• Link can cleanse a person's soul and emotional state via the Song of Healing or the Song of Storms.

Cloud can BFR opponents via Dezone

• Link can travel to previous locations via Farore’s Wind

• Link can travel between dimensional realms via the wall merging ability/Ravio’s Bracelet or Magic Mirror(note: The mirror should be capable of teleportation in general since it can be used to return to the start of a dungeon in both the light and dark worlds).

• Link can travel backward in time via the Song of Time(Zelda doing this to Link even caused him to enter a timeline split in Ocarina’s endings)

• Link can teleport to various locations via the Ocarina of Time

Cloud has Instant Death spells: 

• The Master Sword protects against minor curses

• The Phantom Sword counters life-draining curses and soul manipulation

• Sharp in Majora’s Mask has a curse that can kill the player. It takes time to fully affect Link.

• The Triforce prevents Link from becoming a lost soul in Twilight Princess, which is a kind of soul manipulation.

Cloud has Poison Materia: 

• Link can survive exposure to Malice, which has poisonous or corruptive effects on wildlife and creatures

• Link could be in the presence of the mirror of twilight which could make the character Yeta sick

Cloud has Manipulate Materia: 

• Link can resist possession from Poes in Wind Waker 

• He’s also fought opponents like Ganondorf,  Agahnim, and Twinrova who have similar abilities (Ganon controls Zelda in TP , Agahnim controls knights in Hyrule castle and Twinrova controls Nabooru).

• Mystery Seeds in the oracle games could counter Veran’s possession

Cloud has summons for backup

• Link can create duplicates of himself naturally (the Hero of Time has the ability to split himself) or via the Four Sword

Cloud can use assess/sense Materia to figure out Link’s attributes and attacks

• Link can use time travel to start over the fight with prior knowledge.

• Fi can analyze opponents.

Cloud  has Materia that lets him steal objects from a distance

• Link has clawshots, switch hooks, hook shots, grappling hooks, the whip, and magnesis for stealing items or weapons from opponents as well.

Cloud can cause Blind status effect with Ink(note: Cloud can only inflict blindness with this physical item in FF7)

• Link can probably just wash it out with the Water Rod or wear a mask to prevent his eyes from being hit.

Cloud has numerous equipment and consumables that buff his stats (Zendrick Armor, Independent Materia, and various Support Materia)

• Link has stuff like this such as the Red Mail, the Great Fairy enhancements, the Red Ring, the Protection Ring, the Goddess Charms, and various meals to buff his stats as well.

Cloud

Link has burning, paralyzation, and freezing weapons, arrows or seeds

• Cloud’s Ribbon protects against all of those effects

Link has Magic Armor/Nayru’s Love

• Cloud can either use De-Barrier or Despell to nullify the barriers of the WW Magic armor and Nayru’s Love.

• Many summons/attacks like knights of the Round can bypass magical defense

• Link’s magic armor from Twilight Princess has a time limit based on damage taken (each hit taken uses a set amount of rupees based on the power of the hit). Cloud can simply burn through it via his attack power and speed.

Link has BFR via spells, Gale Seeds or transporting Cloud to Ghostly Ether

• Cloud’s summons are able to break between dimensions and time/space.

• Cloud has similar BFR or teleport magic like Remove and Exit

Link has transmutation via Magic Powder and Mystery Seeds

• Cloud’s Ribbon protects against transmutation

• If Mystery Seeds altering the age of some animals is seen as time manipulation, the Resist spell can protect against it as it blocks time-based abilities

Link has clawshots, whip, switch hook, hook shots and magnesis can be used for stealing items or weapons: 

• Cloud also has Materia that lets him steal objects from a distance.

Link has the Magic Cape’s intangibility: 

• Cloud can interact with non-corporeal enemies like ghosts in the FF7 and FF7 remake.

Link has the Mirror Shield and Reflect spells:

•  Cloud also has spells like this, including Wall, Reflect and Shield

Link’s Chateau Romania grants infinite magic:

• Cloud has Materia that can siphon magic from the opponent, essentially allowing him to leech that magic from Link, giving him infinite magic as well.

Link has various healing spells: 

• Cloud also has various healing spells including Curaga, Fullcure, Regen, Erise and Esuna

Link has time manipulation abilities (time travel, time stop, time slowing)

• Cloud also has time manipulation via Haste and Stop

• Cloud has fought the Whispers of Fate, who have similar time-based powers

Link can create duplicates of himself

• Cloud can use summons for backup

Link can revive upon death via faries or Mipha's grace

• Cloud can auto revive upon death with final attack materia+revive/phoenix summon

Link can travel back in time to fight with prior info or use Fi to analyze Cloud

• Cloud can use Sense/Assess Materia to get info on Link

Magic Cape/Stone Mask: Invisibility

• Ghosts in FF7 and FF7 remake have similar invisibility powers

    

Link has the Command Melody In the Wind Waker, which can control other people

• Cloud’s Ribbon can likely block the Manipulate status effect (which is similar to the Command Melody)

• Likewise the Resist spell could probably block it

• Cloud has been able to fight off the mental influence of his Jenova cells and/or Sephiroth

Link has stat buff equipment such as Red Mail, Great Fairy enhancements, the Red Ring, the Protection Ring, the Goddess Charms, and various meals

• Cloud has numerous equipment and Materia that buff his stats (Zendrick Armor, Independent Materia and various support Materia)

General Cloud Questions

“Why was Cloud given all his Materia? Doesn’t he need slots?”

In Crisis Core, 1st Class Soldiers are given Materia based on what they A) are assigned B) are cleared to use C) collect themselves. The animations of magic use also show that they don't summon Materia through the use of their weapons - they wave their hands. Not to mention, that game has a separate place for Materia equipment.

Likewise in "On the Way to a Smile", Yuffie explicitly states that Materia requires brainwaves to activate its magic. Materia is just a crystallized form of excreted Lifestream energy. That energy is just knowledge of the planet. JENOVA and her descendants can all tap into it. 

That + Crisis Core + the fact Cloud has a natural affinity to it (due to his JENOVA cells) and MASTER Materia just grants him all his abilities anyways, makes the question of "should he have all the Materia?" a non-debate. 

“Did you composite Cloud between the original series games and FF7 remake?”

Yes. Cloud is the same basic character in both versions and the FF7 remake essentially just takes place on a divergent timeline. Cloud even seemed to get some of his memories from the original timeline back by the end of that game, so you could consider them merged.

“Isn’t Supernova an illusion?  Why did Sephiroth need the meteor?”

Supernova is… A supernova. While the contents may seem avant-garde, the guidebooks and various translations on what Supernova is confirms that it’s a blast that destroys dimensional space. Sephiroth brings them into an alternate dimension (we see the dimension summoning animation so this is true as it supports other games) that destroys all of it. We know from boss fights with summons in Crisis Core that the Earth the party usually fights summons in is not the same Earth/planet in-game.

Additionally, when it comes to the Black Materia, Sephiroth’s goal was not to destroy the planet but rather its inhabitants that threatened it. He wanted to reclaim Earth for JENOVA so that she could prosper. Nuking it is counterintuitive to that goal. Black Materia makes the most sense to use here as Meteor explicitly seeks out planets with the Lifestream and wipes it out. 

“If Supernova isn't an illusion, why does Cloud get hurt by bullets, etc.?”

Attack power doesn’t always equal area of effect. Think about how every punch Goku throws doesn’t blow up a planet, despite the fact he’d have to be hitting that hard to hurt his opponents who can survive planet-level attacks even early in Z. Likewise plot-induced stupidity and low ends are common in most stories because they’re not concerned about maintaining consistency for VS debates. All series have inconsistencies like this, Zelda included. 

“Why did you acknowledge Summons? Aren't they outside help?”

The outside help rule isn’t a hard rule. Characters that fight “normally” through the usage of summoning or via another character they can’t function without will normally get them in a fight. Cloud’s summons come from Materia he readily carries and summon Materia is his favorite, meaning using them in the context of this fight makes sense.

"Explain Cloud's speed scaling?"

As Bahamut Fury was aware of its destination and would logically have to know when to start and stop, its mobility should logically scale to its reactions in battle. Since Cloud has been shown to be even with Zack and has defeated similar threats capable of interstellar speeds, this can be applied to his reactions

"Okay, but I still think Supernova and Bahamut is bunk. They're outliers."

Cloud. did not need either of those feats to win. They weren't stated in the episode for prosperity and time sake. But there are other high end feats from ff7 we can use.Let's go through them one by one.

1. Ifrit

Zack gets defeated early in the game by Ifrit when Genesis summons him. Sephiroth pre-Lifestream dip comes in and makes quick work of him. Cloud definitely upscales past Sephiroth and Zack by the time he leaves Midgar (especially so in the Remake). Ifrit is stated in Dissidia, and the remake to be able to rend the world into ashes. His Hellfire ability does this. I had calculated it to be 1.12 Yottatons of TNT (Planet Level).

2. Shiva

Consistently shown to be Ifrit's opposite. He's the fire summon, and she is the ice summon. This extends to various parts of Final Fantasy lore, not just VII. Now, she would obviously be in the Yottaton range being Ifrit's rival, but what has she done on her own? Within VII, she is responsible for the polar ice caps that extend Northern Crater.

3. WEAPONS

The weapons from the planet that come to life when Gaia is threatened. They can cause earthquakes upon their arrival. You are required to fight most of these in the game. The Sister Ray takes out the Sapphire Weapon. Sephiroth has destroyed this mechanism in the past.

4. Bahamuts

Cloud one-shot the second strongest Bahamut in the Bahamut Family. Only one below Bahamut Fury. He actually tanks its entire PetaFlare attack before killing it. Now, the thing about the Bahamuts that I see no one talk about is their SI prefix alongside "Flare." Flare is a non-fire skill that causes explosions. In fact, it's actually non-elemental Black magic. Due to cultural context within Japan, these often represent taboo spells. Along the fact that Flare used to be called NUKE in earlier titles, imply that all the Flare spells are localized nuclear explosions.

Remember that attack potency does not equal range. One famous example would be how the Infinite Mass Punch works for Superman and Flash. They have the power of dwarf star, but the strikes aren't literally as large as an entire celestial body. The force within that attack is just that powerful. This is standard debating 101 that some people conveniently forgot for this fight (especially when arguing about Supernova or Bahamut Fury)

Either or, Flare is important for one reason: the Bahamuts scale up in power based on what "SI prefix-Flare" they use. These are calcable. My values are below.

Assuming 1 megaton (1,000,000 tons) nuke, as it would be in the 1980s…

Bahamut = MegaFlare (one million times greater) = 1e+12 Tons = 1 Teraton (Country Level)

Neo Bahamut = GigaFlare (one billion times greater) = 1e+15 Tons = 1 Petaton (Continent Level)

Bahamut Zero = TeraFlare (one trillion times greater) = 1e+18 Tons = 1 Exaton (Multi-Continent Level)

Bahamut SIN = PetaFlare (one quadrillion times greater) = 1e+21 Tons = 1 Zettaton (Small Planet Level)

Bahamut Fury = ExaFlare (one quintillion times greater) = 1e+24 Tons = 1 Yottaton (Planet Level)

A side tangent, but the 130 Exaton figure in the episode is actually the lowest you can get for Bahamut. Using Heat Fusin methods, I got around 2 Yottatons for the feat. Actually consistent with my figure above.

Overall, Zack fought plenty of Bahamuts and Cloud takes out the second strongest. Not to mention summons like Typhon (that flips the planet), scaling to the defeat of Safer-Sephiroth, or the fact Cloud defeats remnants of Sephiroth in a weakened state makes consistency for scaling fairly blatant. There's still so much from Vincent, Cid, the Big Materia, etc. that I did not even begin to explain here. Case in point, Cloud was fairly stacked for feats and didn't need the big two to win.

"Isn't this wildly different from previous DEATH BATTLES and how they treated Final Fantasy?"

Yes, battles that happened years ago tend to have different opinions. The standards and process of research has dramatically changed since then.

General Link Questions

“Is there any proof that Link reincarnates?”

While Hyrule Historia states that Link can be a series of familial individuals or people from seperate backgrounds, a lot of evidence also points to Link part of some kind of reincarnation cycle.

The Zelda Encyclopedia states Link is not a single hero, but a hero reborn over countless lifetimes.

Demise at the end of Skyward Sword directly references those with the “spirit of the hero” when casting his curse on Link and Zelda (translated directly in JP as soul). Implying all the Links we see in other games have this same spirit/soul.

Breath of the Wild directly has Zelda state the Master Sword is bound to the “soul of the hero” and specifically references the Links from Skyward Sword, Twilight Princess, and Ocarina. This is also written this way in the original JP text and the Creating a Champion book. Impa also mentions Ganon has been defeated repeatedly by a warrior with the soul of a hero.

In Twilight Princess the light spirits reference TP Link and a prior Link (Ocarina) both having the same power, likely referring to the spirit of the hero. It’s also stated TP Link always had this power within him, so it was innate and not something given (just mastered). This is similar to something mentioned by Zelda in Skyward Sword as well, where she said Link had to awaken the Hero already within himself. Most Links have the spirit/soul of the hero innately. It’s not something abstract.

Hyrule Warriors, while a gaiden game, also specifically refers to its own version of Link as the “reborn spirit of the hero”.

The Zelda timeline also acknowledges reincarnation is a thing multiple times, since it outright states that the Ganon seen in Four Swords Adventures is a reincarnation of the original. Zelda herself in Skyward Sword is a reincarnation of Hylia. Ganon was also heavily implied to be an incarnation of Demise.

Breath of the Wild - Creating a Champion also mentions the spirit of the hero when talking about Calamity Ganon’s past history, saying that any era where Ganon appears a sacred hero with the soul of the hero appears. Again referring to most Links in general since the game is at the end of all timelines.

And the Skyward Sword prequel manga directly stated that Link reincarnated because of Hylia. This manga is probably non-canon, but according to Himekawa it was still made in collaboration with Aonuma and was worked on before Skyward Sword came out (meaning the writers had been given inside info to work off). The “original” Link featured in this manga was also heavily implied to exist canonically in Skyward Sword, as it was stated near the start of the game that Hylia gave her sailcloth to him. Director Aonuma himself has even avoided calling Skyward Sword the “first” Zelda(11th question down), since he didn’t want to limit himself from placing something before it.

There are some possible exceptions to the rebirth thing, though none of them are clear-cut.

A lot of people bring up Wind Waker Link, who the King of Red Lions says has no connection to the Hero of Time. However, this circumstance was left vague, as Ganon contradictorily did believe he was a reincarnation of the Hero of Time. Neither side really has concrete info on their claims and in the former case they could have easily just been referring to direct bloodlines. WW Link having to earn his title as hero isn’t much different than any other Link.

The Hero of Twilight directly meets the Hero of Time’s spirit as the Hero’s Shade, though both were still referenced as having the soul of the hero by Zelda in BoTW. This alone doesn’t necessarily mean anything either, given other media that deal with eastern concepts like reincarnation have had present selves meet prior selves in the form of ghosts before (think Aang and Korra). Them being related also isn’t super out of the ordinary, since most versions of Link hail from the bloodline of the knights of Hyrule.

Finally, Gramps in A Link Between Worlds has been theorized to be ALttP Link, though this was never confirmed. There’s evidence that points to it being true such as Gramp’s boss fight having him use Link’s items, and him having the “Song of the Hero” during the game’s credits. Though the time gap between ALttP and ALBW is about six generations based on character statements (about 120 years being conservative with generation numbers, granted Gramps could just be that old). There’s also the fact that technically the Hero of Legend should have had the Triforce of Courage in his possession after splitting the Triforce, but Link in ALBW had to find the Triforce of Courage himself. As well as the fact two Master Swords shouldn’t be able to exist at the same time without time travel. There’s likely something going on that Nintendo just chose not to explain (like perhaps Gramps being similar to the Hero's Shade in some way).

“Why did you composite Link?”

Link is a difficult beast to analyze compared to most other characters.

From an in-universe perspective, each Link is likely a spiritual successor of a previous version, with a few possible exceptions. Additionally, while a lot of Links get some unique equipment or abilities, most share the same general physical attributes and have huge overlaps in arsenal. 

From an out-of-universe perspective Link is “essentially” the mascot for the Zelda series. While some Links have more unique quirks, each one is designed to be a silent protagonist that the player projects onto. They generally aren't heavily fleshed-out individuals unless you read side media like the manga.

It’s a very unique case and a lot of the comparisons to the Belmonts, Jojos, and Lords in Fire Emblem don’t really apply. Link is more like a character with multiple versions like Leonardo or Captain Falcon, then mixed together with a “continually reborn” character like Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender, or Fei from Xenogears. No Link is so distinct that an average person wouldn’t recognize them as “Link”. In contrast, characters like Jotaro, Josuke, and Joseph are known by those names, not just “Jojo”, and their personalities, appearances, equipment, and abilities are more often than not much more varied between themselves than it is between the different Links.

But regardless of how much precedent you think there is for compositing Link, when looking at the potential options for this fight, giving him everything was probably the best choice to make. 

Note: Just gonna make it clear this next section is entirely Ultraguy’s opinion (not Death Battle or Rooster Teeth’s).

On the whole, we could have:

1. Used the most recent incarnation of Link, Breath of the Wild

• That would cut out over 20 years of Zelda history and Link wouldn’t get a lot of his iconic items. BoTW allegedly also has a sequel coming out anyway, so focusing on that incarnation is moot.

2. Used the strongest incarnation of Link

• Which Link is “the strongest” is too subjective and also has the problem of leaving out any newer abilities or items in the series. If you don’t use anything new in the rematch, it defeats the point.

3. Just used the common stuff between each Link

• Ironically despite the claims of Link being given “everything” in the first episode, that’s essentially what that episode already did. Again, no point in having a rematch if you don’t use new stuff. What is ‘common’ between each Link is also pretty subjective, as while many don’t always have the exact item or piece of equipment one Link has, they will sometimes have an equivalent or similar piece of equipment.

Compositing Link also creates the least amount of problems in the long run, because it doesn’t leave open any potential room for rebuttals such as “what if you used this version instead?” Not to mention it ‘s the only way you can really justify giving Cloud his entire arsenal, and it creates better animation opportunities as well. 

“Why wasn’t Link given the full Triforce?”

The full Triforce was the one thing that we chose not to give Link. This was because Link’s piece of the Triforce is typically designated as the Triforce of Courage, while the other pieces typically belong to Ganon and Zelda. Yes, Link got basically everything in this fight, but all those items and abilities are still primarily his own.

Also technically Link doesn’t normally retain sole ownership of the Triforce in the games he collects it in any way. 

After ALttP the Triforce was shown to be left with the royal family during the Oracle games, and the Hero of Legends was stated to have specifically split it before A Link Between Worlds.

In Skyward Sword and A Link Between Worlds, it is probably presumed that Link helped protect the Triforce along with the royal family before it was either sealed in the Sacred Realm or broken before its next appearances (Ocarina and Zelda 1, respectively-pg6). 

It’s mainly just Zelda 2 where it seemingly stays in Link’s possession. Since the game ends right after using it to awaken Zelda.

Anyway, including it kind of opens a can of worms of Link potentially “wishing” for Cloud to be defeated (which defeats the point of the fight). Granted, a wish on the Triforce has vague limitations based on the “strength of the wish” and each Link that collected the Triforce already utilized their wish anyway (it’s heavily implied that you only get one in the encyclopedia since it states a “wish holds until the user dies”).

“Don’t the Triforce pieces have the full power of each goddess?”

It’s pretty unlikely that the Triforce has the full power of the goddesses. For one, there’s technically a separate Triforce in each timeline branch. Secondly, in each timeline branch, Lorule should also have its own additional Triforce. That’s a total of at least six Triforces (seven if you count Age of Calamity causing another timeline split), and each one having the full power of the gods is impossible because of that. 

Likewise, it’s been directly stated that the Triforce only has a small portion of the goddess's power in some games. This was stated in the English version of the ALttP manual. Which while not in the original JP version is supported by the existence of multiple triforces.(Not to mention the statement people use for multiversal level goddesses comes from a Nintendo of America website, so this should also be fair game in comparison). In fact it’s likely that it’s not even the triforce itself that's the most potent, rather it's the wish the gods themselves seemingly grant when it’s collected.

It should also be noted that a “fraction” doesn’t necessarily mean one half. A fraction can literally be a billionth, a quadrillionth, a novemdecillionith, etc.

“Was Link’s power downgraded from the Ganon episode?”

In Ganondorf VS Dracula it’s specified that the Triforce of Power could “maybe” have planet-busting power if you scale it to Din making a planet in a single timeline. Now it’s important to note that we were giving Ganon the benefit of the doubt when we made that statement. That said, there was almost a black box scaling the Triforce of Courage to Nayru creating a star. There just wasn’t space.

“Doesn’t Ganon move the moon during the blood moon in BoTW?”

No. It’s specified in the Champions artbook that his malice just floods the sky and turns everything red. He doesn’t actually control the moon itself.

“Does the Sun’s Song move the planet or move the sun?”

No. It's time manipulation, which is why you can use the Sun's Song to skip ahead three days to get the Biggoron Sword.

“Didn’t Ganondorf stop the rotation of the planet with his Eternal Night spell in Wind Waker?”

This reminds us of an episode of Sonic X where Eggman claims the sun is blocked out because his mechanical egg moon can’t be moved out of the way, then Sonic explains that that doesn’t make sense because of how astronomy works.

12:00

Anyways, the short answer is no, Ganon didn’t stop the rotation of the Earth. Even if the Earth’s rotation had stopped, it’s position relative to the sun would still change due to its gravitational rotation around it. Even stopping the movement of the Earth altogether doesn’t make sense, because the solar system and Milky Way galaxy are also constantly moving through space due to gravitation pulls provided by even larger objects. The most logical explanation is it’s time manipulation similar to the Sun’s Song or some kind of weather manipulation that simply blocks out the sun from view.

“Are Light Arrows lightspeed?”

Possibly?

In A Link Between Worlds, Wind Waker, Minish Cap, Spirit Tracks, and Ocarina/Majora they're just normal arrows covered in light magic (note:you can see a physical arrow in all these cases and/or use up normal arrow ammo when you fire). This is also stated in most of their data files.

The Light Arrows in BoTW and TP are actually light magic constructs. Hence why in BoTW both have infinite ammo and fire straight.

In the latter case you “might” have an argument (granted light magic constructs aren't always accepted as light speed in a lot of places), though it doesn’t boost speed enough to keep up with Cloud.

“Can Link boost his speed to FTL via flurry rush or the inverted Song of Time?”

We could buy it. The inverted Song of Time is almost a 3x boost in speed and Link’s perception slows down dramatically during a Flurry Rush. It is also fairly likely that some laser feats from BOTW or Age of Calamity might get FTL without an amp. That said, Link’s speed would probably only be slightly over FTL at best, rather than massively faster than light. 

“What about the One-Hit Obliterator?”

This weapon isn’t kept even in the context of BoTW. You can only use it during the Trial of the Sword and it’s deactivated permanently afterward.

“Can Link be argued to have time manipulation resistance due to Skyward Sword’s Timeshift Stones?”

Maybe. It’s also possible that the Timeshift Stones just don’t affect certain objects rather than it being due to some kind of resistance on Link’s part. It wouldn’t change the outcome regardless.

“Can’t Link kill Cloud during a time stop?”

If you want to get technical, Cloud can protect himself from time stops. If you cast the spell Resist on yourself in FF7 it locks all your status effects in place, which is a roundabout way to prevent time stop. The Resist spell also prevents all status effects for two minutes when cast in FF7 remake. That aside, Cloud has a timestop as well and is faster.

“What about the Clock power-up? That's an indefinite time stop?”

The clock power up stopping enemies permanently until you leave the screen is probably a game mechanic (it being able to end at all probably means it has some kind of time limit). Likewise, even if Cloud didn’t use a spell-like resist to counter the power-up preemptively, technically there is equipment in FF7 Remake that blocks time stop outright. We’d just have to add it to Cloud’s inventory.

“Can Link really defend against all of Cloud’s hax?”

We’re probably being “somewhat” liberal with the idea Link can counter all of Cloud’s magic. For example, the Master Sword for example doesn’t prevent jinx on its own and can be overwhelmed by Shadow Fog's effects in Twilight Princess. So it's not foolproof. Some of Cloud’s general hax also don’t really have an “exact” analog in Zelda if you wanna get technical. Likewise, nothing suggests a lot of Cloud’s elemental spells aren't strong enough to bypass Link’s protection

“Are Ancient Arrows existence erasure?”

The mechanics of how Ancient Arrows work is never properly explained (the in-game data files just say they “consign foes to oblivion”). However, a fairly substantial theory is that they send opponents somewhere else (like another dimension) or break them down similar to teleportation without rebuilding them afterward (like a Star Trek teleporter malfunction).

This can be presumed based on the fact that the visual effects of Ancient Arrows hitting opponents are similar to the teleportation effects in BoTW. This also explains why large enemies can withstand them or certain Shikein armor is unaffected. There’s likely a limit to how much or what kind of material can be teleported at once, a concept confirmed recently with Shiekein teleportation in Age of Calamity. This video gives a pretty good explanation of the concept.

Anyway, regardless of how you wanna slice it, Cloud can just dodge the arrow, or sacrifice a weapon to block it. If you agree AAs are teleportation then Cloud’s summons can travel through dimensions, and he has his own teleport/BFR spells Remove/Exit. The BFR Remove spells also has the same properties as death when used by enemies in FF7 and can be blocked via the Resist spell.

“Can the Light Arrows from Wind Waker instantly kill Cloud?”

Light Arrows in Wind Waker can instantly kill most enemies and turn them into light. Technically Cloud’s ribbon should protect against any transmutation and his durability should be high enough to survive them like bosses do.

“Can’t the Protection Ring null all damage?”

The protection ring reduces all damage to one heart, but what exactly ‘one heart’ translates to can’t be quantified in a logical way. Not to mention technically assuming that any attack can be blocked to such an extent is a no-limit fallacy (a logical fallacy where you extend the effectiveness of something far beyond what it’s ever been shown to apply to).

“Won’t the Master Sword, Light/Silver Arrows affect Cloud’s Jenova cells like in the original fight?”

No. Jenova’s will is carried by her cells, but Jenova herself isn’t really malevolent. She’s more like an animal acting out on its base instinct.

"Explain the beamos feat?"

The calc measures the distance Link could move in relation to how far the beamos laser moved in the same time span.

What about all the universal dimension feats?

Ok let’s go through all of these one at a time...

Demise

At the end of the game, Demise says that he’ll prepare a place for Link to fight him and seemingly opens a portal somewhere. Some people say he made this dimensional space, and therefore it’s a feat Link can scale to.

So this is actually explained in the Japanese version of Skyward Sword. The place Demise goes to is the “realm of the Demon Tribe”. It’s a location that already existed. Likewise, nothing about the realm is really warped outside of Demise possibly causing a storm there and blocking the skyward strike ability.

"Ware ga yo wo shihaisuru made no wazukana jikan wo ningenrashiku nakikuru ga ii...

Daga mazoku no yo ni aragau i ga aru to iunonara...

Ware no ato wo ottekoi. Sukoshi deareba matteiyarou..."

 

"I do not care if you value your life and run away. Go ahead and weep like a human during the little time left before I rule the world... But if you claim of having the courage to step into the Demon Tribe's world, then... Come after me. I shall wait for a little while."

Zant

In Hyrule Historia it’s stated that Zant was going to fuse the normal world with the Twilight Realm. This was not something that was done instantly or on a universal scale. Zant essentially blankets sections of Hyrule Kingdom slowly over time, while Link enters these isolated locations one at a time to dispel them over the course of the game. You even see one of these areas go up near the start of the game.

Wind Fish

The world of Koholint in Link’s Awakening is a dream realm created by the sleeping Wind Fish. Some people take this to be a universe-level feat and back it up due to the fact the LA character Marin was able to persist as a seagull after the dream ended and a vague description from the old NOA Zelda website.

Anyway, the Zelda encyclopedia calls the world of the Wind Fish illusionary on multiple pages, and the disappearance of said world when the Wind Fish awakens makes its status as a true space/time manipulation dubious. Even then, nothing in the game suggests how large the realm is, as you only explore an island and the realm itself does not have an established cosmos. Given characters state nothing is beyond the island in Hyrule Historia and only the island disappears in the remakes ending, it’s most likely not legit.

Majora

Majora’s Mask has two dimension feats. The first is creating a small pocket dimension on the moon you fight in and the second is supposedly altering/creating Termina. The former is generally considered vague though somewhat backed up if you take the Nintendo power guide literally. The second feat has a lot of convoluted context to it.

The first mention of Majora altering Termina’s was in an old Nintendo Power guide, where it was stated it altered the land's space/time(right top section). The second is when the Zelda encyclopedia stated that all of Termina was altered based on Skull Kid’s memories and that the Four Giants were made from his memories of them.

Anyways, the problem with this feat is the idea of Majora creating or altering Termina to such an extent is generally contradictory to Skull Kid’s backstory and was never hinted at all before the encyclopedia (with most other media just treating it like an alt-universe). It’s very specifically stated that the reason why the Skull Kid became evil was because the Four Giants left him to be protectors of the four corners of Termina. Skull Kid’s fairies also know who the Four Giants are and where to find them in Termina and many characters in Termina refer to Skull Kid as being a resident before the plot kicked off. These plot points cannot exist unless Termina itself existed prior to the events of Majora’s Mask. Making this come off like a poorly thought-out retcon that doesn’t make much sense. It’s likely that what these books/media were trying to say is that Termina already existed and that Majora altered it with his various curses on the residents or the landscapes. Rather than the mask-making everything nearly by scratch.

Vaati

Vaati seemingly creates a space-like void during his final boss fight in Minish Cap.

This is actually one of the few that may hold water (albeit technically you could argue he just teleported Link to a new location). Though in the context of this fight it still wouldn’t matter much for reasons we’ll get to later.

Triforce

The final universal feats are the ones centering around the Triforce’s effect on the Sacred Realm and maintaining the alternate realm Lorule.

Going over the first feat, essentially the Sacred Realm is an alternate dimension where the Triforce is normally stored. When the Sacred Realm is introduced in A Link to the Past, it’s explained that when Ganon seized the Triforce his wish turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. This makes sense in the context of that game given the manual states that the Moon Pearl protects the user from the magic of the Triforce. It's also stated that the people who enter take on the form of their inner thoughts due to the Triforce's power in the Dark World.

Later, Ocarina of Time expanded on the Sacred Realm and explained that the Sacred Realm is a reflection of the heart. A person who enters the realm and tries to claim the Triforce will alter the realm to match the nature of their heart (regardless of if they get the full thing or not). When Ganon tried to seize the Triforce in Ocarina and got the Triforce of Power, it corrupted the realm. This is what has been established in Hyrule Historia and the Encyclopedia as well. 

Going over the second feat, the Triforce is also given universal power levels due to “maintaining Lorule” which is the parallel world shown in A Link Between Worlds. 

Essentially it’s stated that Lorule has its own Triforce and that destroying it sent the kingdom into a downward spiral of decline. It’s important to note however that the entire universe didn’t simply “explode” when the Triforce was removed. This decline happened over a period of generations (Hilda says her “ancestors” got rid of the Triforce) and most of the effects of decline was progressive damage to the planet and monsters appearing. Even at the end of the game when Lorule’s Triforce is restored, Lorule isn’t instantly warped back to normal and still has tons of fissures. 

Anyways, in the second example, the actual effects of the Triforce are probably slow or subdued enough that it wouldn’t be considered universal AP. In the first example, there’s kind of a continuity snarl between Ocarina of Time and ALttP. Personally, my take on it is this:

In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and it altered to become a Hell-like state because the realm changed due to Ganon’s heart. Then when he killed Link in the Downfall timeline, his wish on the Triforce changed the Sacred Realm fully into the Dark World. Instead of the Sacred Realm altering based on the hearts of those who entered it, it altered the people who entered based on their heart instead. 

Keep in mind this is just a theory, but it's the only explanation that makes sense to me, particularly given people entered the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP without having their forms changed (Link and Gandorf himself in ALTTP prologue manual). As well as the fact the triforce itself states what Ganon’s wish did in ALTTP and a lot of material directly references it’s power having influence over people. So when people say the Triforce altered the Sacred Realm they may be technically correct, even if a lot of the mechanics of the Sacred Realm are obtuse and indirect(and tbh even at face value you could get semantical on how large the sacred realm is supposed to be).

Anyway, even if you want to scale Link to the full Triforce there honestly aren't a lot of ways to do it. No one in the series has actually absorbed and utilized the full Triforce during a fight in Zelda, outside of Ganon in the non-canon Hyrule Warriors. Yeah, Ganon is the Triforce's owner in ALTTP, but the Triforce itself doesn’t play a role in the final battle. It’s stored in his throne room and collected by Link after Ganon is already defeated. We’re aware this is fairly odd but it makes sense when you remember ALTTP was an early game that hadn’t fully established how some parts of the Zelda lore worked (Ocarina itself retconned multiple elements of Zelda lore years later). It’s likely that just absorbing the Triforce as an amp wasn’t an idea at the time.

Likewise, for the record, it’s unlikely that Zelda has the full Triforce in BoTW either. The Making a Champion book makes it clear that the sealing power she awakened to and used on Ganon is something her entire bloodline can do, including her mother when Zelda was a child. It also specifically points out that while the Triforce on her hand alludes to it, its connection to the triforce has not been confirmed as the same thing. It’s likely that the Triforce mark people have seen on her hand is similar to the mark of the hero on Link’s hand, which simply signifies his connection to the goddesses (and is distinct from the mark of actually having the Triforce). This makes sense given Zelda’s power was passed down via the goddess Hylia.

Misc

The statement that Yuga was going to devour Hyrule and Lorule in a Link Between Worlds is most likely a metaphor for his lust for power. It’s not literal. Same with Malludus or the Imprisoned.

The world of the ocean king in Phantom hourglass is just another location of the normal planet. You can get there via boat.

Conclusion

A lot of the realm feats in Zelda are fairly mixed in applicability. The Wind Fish, Zant, and Demise are pretty easy to disprove while Vaati and Majora are just a bit more vague or questionable. Technically the full Triforce does technically have some arguments for it, but nobody in the main series has actually used it as an amp anyway.

That said, even if you take all these feats at face value, you can just highball Supernova or Knights of the Round. Both attack animations have stars and galaxies in them which alone are visibly larger than the realms possibly made by Demise, the Wind Fish, Vaati or Majora (on the moon).

Likewise, Supernova clearly takes place in a galaxy and solar system based on our own. If you wanted to extrapolate you could also say the entire dimension is based on our own, thereby making it a universal feat when it’s destroyed. Something like that would be more impressive than Majora or the Triforce given the effects are near-instant and primarily destructive in nature (rather than simple alterations).

Misc Arguments

“Can  you explain exactly what both characters had in the fight?”

Link = every feat, accomplishment, and weapon from every canon Zelda game (no Hyrule Warriors, or CDI games). The only thing not included was the full Triforce.

Cloud = FF7 + its direct sequels (CC, BC, AC, etc) and FF7 remake. Cloud got all weapons and Materia available to him in any of the games he appears in.

“Doesn’t Link have more restorative items? Can’t he win in a war of attrition?”

It really wouldn’t matter. Most Zelda games only have around 6-8 bottles for potion storage. Even Breath of the Wild only has about 60 slots for meals/elixirs with some meals being stackable.

In FF7 you can carry 99 of any item. So Cloud can technically have 99 elixirs, 99 potions, 99 ethers, etc. In a war of attrition, he’d probably win.

"Doesn't Link have more equipment and magic attacks?"

Not really. The amount of materia in the FF7 series is pretty high and Cloud can about match Link's arsenal in variety using them. This is something that’s just overlooked because Zelda items are much more iconic than individual Materia.

“Does Fierce Deity have the merits of all masks?”

Yep

"Isn't it implausible for both to move at rela-FTL speeds?"

Fiction doesn't really need to follow logical rules or the laws of physics. FTL speed being impossible in the real world doesn't mean Cloud and Link have to be held to that same standard in the context of made-up a story.

“What about Hyrule Warriors and Dissidia/Tactics?”

Hyrule Warriors was confirmed to fall outside the normal Zelda timeline by Zelda director Aonuma. It’s a non-canon game.

Dissidia and Tactics are technically more canon in contrast. But the fact they feature crossovers with other Final Fantasy titles (which are generally standalone stories in separate universes) means that using them would lead to tons of plot/scaling arguments that would complicate the fight and open needless avenues for rebuttal. It also really isn’t necessary to bring them up when Cloud can  win without them anyway.

Though for the record, Dissidia does do a lot more for Cloud than Hyrule Warriors does for Link. The best Link has is matching a full Triforce amped Ganon which "could" be universal with significant leeway. Other FF characters Cloud would scale to because of Dissidia can reach multiversal levels of power.

Note: Stuff like Smash, Kingdom Hearts, Soul Calibur, etc. are obviously even more non-canon than the media above and we're excluded as a result.

“Why did Link’s rundown have references to the Skyward Sword manga?”

Because the manga is cool and gives a better visual explanation for Link’s backstory than multiple text lines from books. Hylia herself was also technically responsible for the creation of the Link in Skyward Sword (her entire plan to defeat Demise hinged on knowing he’d be born), hence the gods being responsible for Link’s appearance is still a valid explanation.

And TBH there's probably a better chance than not that a version of Link before Skyward Sword does exist in some form. Like we mentioned above, Zelda referenced Hylia giving a hero a sailcloth before the events of the game, Aonuma alluded to the idea of a game before Skyward Sword, and this manga, while non-canon, was collaborated on with him before Skyward Sword was released. Finally, BOTW Creating a Champion and BOTW itself referred to its version of Link as Hylia’s “chosen hero”  showing that term applies to more than one Link.

To be fair, we’ve seen people theorize that Sky Link himself created his own legend due to the game's time travel plot, but that doesn’t really make sense. The time period in the past you go back to in Skyward Sword is after Skyloft is already in the air, so the cast never interacts with anyone. Additionally, the only one who stays in the past is Impa, who spends her entire life guarding the sealed grounds and Zelda’s body. So Skyloft couldn’t have learned about the goddesses ceremony via a time loop unless you assume some convoluted explanations on Impas' part just to pass down info on a ceremony she never saw in the first place. The ceremony itself has also been done the same way since ancient times according to the Hyrule Historia, so it’s unlikely that its meaning was distorted. It’s just referring to a hero besides the Hero of the Sky.

Demise’s lack of recognition in SkyLink probably just means this other version of Link died before facing him. It’s even possible he did think the Hero of the Sky was a reincarnation due to him learning he was Hylia’s chosen knight and having knowledge of what the spirit of the hero was without being told.

Anyways TL;DR The Skyward sword manga is non-canon, but it is heavily implied there’s an incarnation of Link before Sky and that Hylia has a role in subsequent Links appearing. Hence it was acknowledged in the episode.

“How reliable are the encyclopedias and so on for each series?”

Final Fantasy is generally more consistent with its lore books due to having fewer games and more official involvement from its creators when they’re being put together.

A lot of the stuff people use for Zelda comes from inconsistent or outdated tertiary sources. Like for example:

• An old Nintendo Power guide for games like Majora's Mask

• Very old Nintendo of America websites that you can’t access anymore outside of an archive

Along with the Hyrule Historia and the Encyclopedia, which, while mostly factual, are known for having some errors or retconning lore in ways that don’t always make sense. The encyclopedia specifically has a preface explaining anything listed in it is subject to change and even the Historia mentions certain things may be up to change. Zelda isn’t very consistent or concerned with making sure the broad aspects of it’s lore are well explained, and intentionally leaves room for interpretation. 

Bonus Questions

“Does Link really flip the planet in Hyrule warriors with gauntlets?”

If you turn off the dynamic camera during the special attack he visually doesn’t flip anything. That said, being fair in a lot of games messing with the camera angles to play with the player's perspective to fake special effects is common. It is possible the creators did intend this move to be a planet flip and logically didn’t want to spontaneously flip the entire game world/screen enemies for a single attack.

“What about feats from the Tingle games?”

Does anybody really want to talk about this guy?

Did Zelda really have a timeline from the start?

Most likely yes. Adventure of Link was a sequel to the first game. ALTTP was a prequel to the first game. Link’s awakening was intended as a sequel to ALTTP from the start. Ocarina was meant to be a prequel to ALTTP and Majora is a sequel to that game. Nintendo also clearly had the basic concept of the 3 way timeline split figured out in the early 2000s, since Wind waker, Twilight princess, and Retro’s canceled Zelda game(which was going to be in the downfall timeline) all took place in one each. Phantom hourglass and spirit tracks were both sequels to Wind Waker. Minish cap, four swords, and four swords adventures are all a series with an obvious relation to each other, with Minish cap being stated to be before ocarina at one point. Finally, Skyward sword is obviously meant to be the earliest Zelda this far based on its events. Not to mention Aonuma confirmed the existence of a timeline before Hyrule Historia.

There might be a handful of game placements made after the fact, but for the most part yes the Zelda team does clearly know where most games place before release.

Who wins a Link battle royale? (Time vs Sky vs Wind vs Legend vs Wild vs Twilight)

Ultraguy did a blog on this a long time ago. Compared to most royals it’s pretty subjective but it mostly comes down to this.

The Hero of the Sky and the Hero of Twilight are both probably at a disadvantage due to having lackluster arsenals by Link standards(mostly having standard stuff and more exploration-based equipment). Both also technically have less experience with only a single adventure each.

Wind has a bit more experienced, but again mostly doesn’t have anything in his arsenal that other Links don’t. His version of Ganon was also probably the tamest.

BOTW Link has the largest arsenal by far, but he suffers from quantity over quality. His dozens of breakable weapons can mostly be matched by one or two reliable ones used by the other Links. He’s got a handful of things other Link’s can’t easily match, like ancient arrows or Stasis.

Legend is probably the best Link on paper. Having the best master sword, the best arrows, a large array of unique weapons, time travel, weather control, etc. Albeit his lack of extensive magical reserves means he can’t use all of his arsenal endlessly. He also has the most adventures and probably fought the most dangerous Ganon.

That said, we think the Hero of Time is the probable winner. He’s simply the most balanced Link of the bunch. He has infinite magic so he can use his entire arsenal as much as he wants. He can carry more potions than most average Links. He’s gotten permanent enhancements to his defense by great fairies. He has the best strength enhancers, and a few abilities other Links can’t counter. Including time slowing, his ability to split into 3, the giant's mask, and the invisibility of the stone mask. Fierce Deity Link also technically has the best calcable feats in the series, outside speculative realm stuff(and even then the mask is on the highest scale in those regards as well). 

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