Silver vs Trunks Q and A

 "The following is a fan-made blog, whose opinion is only those involved in its writing. It is not officially endorsed by Rooster Teeth Productions or a representative of the views of the Death Battle staff at large."

Gonna move this up here, since somebody bothered Ian on Twitter.

"Also putting it out here on the off chance Ian Flynn for some reason gets asked about this fight or linked this blog. I love your work and hope you and Kyle are having a nice day. I also look forward to playing Sonic frontiers. Likewise if you disagree with the outcome, what characters are given feats/arsenal wise or anything else, I say I honestly don't mind at all. I also really don't want any fans to bother you about the fight either, since I know those kinds of conversations can easily turn toxic. Despite the very looong list of questions here, character debates as a concept are pretty silly, shouldn't be taken super seriously and are pretty subjective anyway since they're based around fictional characters that are typically written based on narrative needs rather than power scaling logic(I would actually even say that if Sega was writing an actual crossover with DBZ it wouldn't follow a lot logic in this blog). This is largely just me explaining the internal "rational" of the eps outcome for a very specific group of people who want it and had a very specific set of questions. I'll also add this is a "fan blog", not officially endorsed by the show, nor am I a direct rooster teeth employee."

"It is use'"

   Archie Silver questions

Sonic '06 is canon to Archie?

'06 is soft-canon to Archie. Ian Flynn confirmed that Sonic '06 happened as part of the Archie’s pre-gen continuity many years ago.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160408135629/http://bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27287  

“I'm treating it as if Sonic '06 already happened. Since its story effectively makes itself never happen, I'm saying that it did happen in the book - which is to say it didn't. Hooray for paradoxes!”

Sonic '06’s main city, Soleanna, is also mentioned in pre-gen Archie during issue 4 of Sonic Universe 

Sonic Universe issue 4

And a version of Mephiles shows up in Sonic Universe issue 29

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Sonic-Universe/Issue-29?id=21659#18 

Sonic 06 being canon to Archie is also why Mephiles, Solaris, ETC have pages in the comic encyclopedia. It’s because the plot of that game is “roughly” part of the canon. Mephiles was also going to show up as a character in the post-gen shadow fall storyline. This largely never came to fruition because of how Sega’s mandates typically discourage the use of dead villains (such as Mephiles) in storylines.

Are other Sonic games canon to Archie?

The vast majority of main Sonic games were retroactively made soft-canon to Archie after the reboot (With the exception of Sonic Unleashed, Lost World, minor spin-offs and a few other games made after the comics cancellation). This was stated by Ian on his old forum, which you can see people reference if you look through old web archives.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150419233728/http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7879&start=90 

If all games minus Unleashed, Chronicles and Lost World are canon to the main comic continuity, that includes Sonic '06 and Sonic R, right?

The post-gen comics reference the games as being canon all the time for that matter. There’s dozens of annotations that say “as seen in Sonic 3 the Game” and so on.

“The Black Comet’s first attack was in Shadow the Hedgehog the video game” https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Sonic-Universe/Issue-59?id=21706&readType=0#9 

“Shadow the Hedgehog video game” https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Sonic-Universe/Issue-60?id=21710#11 

“Sonic 3 and Knuckles the game, Sonic Adventure the game, Sonic Adventure 2 the game, Sonic Advance 3 the game”  https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Sonic-Universe/Issue-69?id=21729#12 

And yes this includes almost all the games Silver appeared in. Sonic Rivals 1 and 2, Sonic Generations, Sonic Colors and even Sonic '06 (again) are canon to the reboot comic.

Do the comics have vastly different contexts for these “games”? 

The Sonic '06 plot described in the encyclopedia is almost word for word taken from the games. Likewise every game referenced in the post-gen comic literally states it’s “the game” and Archie’s post-reboot plots generally assume most major events of those games played out. Sure it’s fair to assume there’s minor deviations in plot, such as Sally Acorn appearing as a side character in events where she was not originally present, but there’s no reason to assume there were major alterations to core events such as the final culmination of the entire storylines or final bosses.  For example it’s a safe bet the Ark almost crashed into the earth, the Eclipse Cannon destroyed half the moon, the Stellar Amusement Park was eaten by a black hole, etc. 

In layman’s terms it’s ironically more justified to composite the games into Archie Sonic than vice versa. It simply never came up during Archie Sonic’s episode because he didn’t need to do that.

Are Archie characters in base weaker than their game counterparts?

Probably not. There really isn’t a reason to think the Archie characters can’t perform most feats from the games, since most of those games were canon to Archie anyway by the end of its run. Likewise while the Wally vs Sonic episode never talked about it much, if we scaled Archie characters directly to single Chaos Emeralds due to fighting characters with them (which is somewhat what we did for game Shadow in his episode), they would be waaaay stronger than their game counterparts in base.

There are multiple cases of Chaos Emeralds spawning pocket realities. 

Eggman did this in issue 25, creating the Collision Chaos Zone. http://i.imgur.com/ZoKzGhL.jpg , http://i.imgur.com/CmShAOa.jpg   http://i.imgur.com/JE26Bx6.jpg 

Eggman and Wily created a dimension in Mega Man issue 24 

A zone was also made with chaos energy in Triple Trouble.

Additionally a Chaos Emerald literally warped the reality of Sonic’s entire universe during the first Genesis Wave event. Nearly destabilizing the entire universe.

Can Silver manipulate Trunks’ Ki?

Silver’s powers in Archie manipulate energy in general, so there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be able to manipulate Ki blasts. He’s manipulated chaos energy, and numerous magically-controlled elements for example. The fact he could manipulate Enerjak’s energy also shows he can manipulate energy created by a character far out of his weight class.

Was Enerjak going easy on Silver?

Enerjak starts off nonchalant, but he legit loses his patience towards the end of the confrontation and tries to kill Silver outright. Silver clearly also puts up much more of a fight than any other Sonic character has done against Enerjak in his base form. Shadow even outright took off his inhibitor rings and tries to hit Enerjak with his full might of his chaos abilities once, and Enerjak shrugged it off easily and beat him in one shot. Heck, Enerjak killed the entire Sonic cast in one timeline and fought Super Sonic more than once (and won). Standing up to him is a huge deal even if Silver obviously can't match him in brute force. Other characters like Super Scourge have similarly commented on how Silver’s powers are impressive even with massive power gaps.

Super Silver questions

Does Silver have a Super form in Archie?

Silver does have a Super form in Archie and it’s mentioned in the comic encyclopedia. This is because Sonic '06 was soft-canon to the comic, and Silver uses his Super form against the final boss in that game. Despite the comics versions of these events happening offscreen,  we know Silver canonically has the ability to use this form and we know the context it was used under, so he was given it during the fight. It was treated similarly to Rock Lee getting the 8th Gate in his fight despite his ability to do so only being informed rather than shown.

Can Silver go Super on his own?

Nothing suggests that Silver would need “aid” to go Super.

In Archie any character capable of going Super has always just gone Super when exposed to enough chaos energy.  Shadow and Tails are literally forced into their super forms during the Great Harmony when A.D.A.M captured them, and Jani-Ca turned into Enerjak without even being aware that it was going to happen. It’s also stated that Chaos Energy reacts to everyone. Which is why some can go super in the first place and other’s can’t. Ian Flynn has also been asked about Super Silver before, and never implies it’s an ability he’d need help to use, suggesting that it would have shown up eventually.

Even in the games, Sonic goes Super the first time without being taught, Knuckles goes Super without  being taught, and Shadow goes Super the first time without being taught. The same goes for Super forms in Sonic X, Sonic the Comic, the Movies, etc. Izuka has even singled out male hedgehogs as being the ones with the potential to go Super and no one who’s gone Super in the games has ever explicitly been told they can beforehand. The characters generally know the Emeralds can be used as a source of power, because they’re major McGuffins in the series lore and have been used dozens of times in whatever continuity they show up in. Silver also clearly knows what Chaos emeralds are and what they can do anyway. Game wise even post 06 he was present several times when Sonic went Super(and uses Chaos Control to time Travel) and Archie wise he was specifically taught about chaos energy by Edmund.

The only exception to the "learning" thing has been Blaze being unable to use the Sol Emeralds at first, but this was due to her being unwilling to feel the positive emotions that make emeralds work rather than a need for training. There’s no reason to think Silver would be singled out from every other character in the cast. Heck if he can tap into the power of one Emerald, why would he have issues with all 7?

And finally while it’s only supporting evidence due to not having any direct continuity connection to Archie, IDW Sonic does feature Super Silver, and just had him utilize the form with no issues. Given IDW has even stricter mandates from Sega than Archie and given how IDW had pretty much the same creative team as Archie, this instance shows it’s fairly evident that Silver “not being able to go super on his own” is not a thing Sega has ever considered to be true. Heck a recent interview on Sonic Boom makes it “very” clear Sonic characters in general cannot be portrayed in ways that conflict too heavily with Sega's vision of the characters. If there was any restriction on Silver going super on his own it would have come up here.

Chaos Emeralds are non-standard?

This was probably an argument that would have come up regardless of if this was Archie Silver or game Silver, but I don’t think it really matters for either.

Yes, the Chaos Emeralds generally aren't just laying around in Sonic’s world, but the Super forms are a massive part of the series lore and represent the peak of the verse's power. It’s a bit unreasonable to think we wouldn’t allow any Sonic character with a Super form to have said Super form in a fight, particularly in cases where the entire outcome would be decided by such forms. Claiming “Emeralds are non-standard” for Sonic characters would always come off as the show deliberately stacking the odds against them. Sonic characters will almost always get their Super forms in a fight if they have one.

It’s also a bit hypocritical  given how we treat other characters. Most characters featured on Death Battle do not or would not carry every weapon they’re ever had on their person at any given moment. For example Mega Man hates fighting and would never just be walking about with his arsenal from every game. Cloud wouldn’t normally have every Materia ever on him for no reason at a given moment. Samus canonically loses most of her power-ups at the start of most of her games. Even Xeno Trunks himself never used the Key Sword again storywise after its initial appearance. Most characters are given everything they've had before in a fight, to set them at their max potential.

And realistically speaking Silver is a time traveler. If it really came down to it he could just go to any period of time where the Emeralds (or Master Emerald) are already gathered to use them. 

Super Sonic is far above most other Super forms.

Super Sonic is not uniquely powerful in the world of Archie. While Sonic has the vaguely defined “embodiment of chaos” status behind him, he himself has lost or been matched by various other characters in his super form before.

For example:

• Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles fought and were evenly matched.

• Super Sonic, Hyper Knuckles and Turbo Tails all had to work together to fight Master Mogul

• Enerjak fought Super Sonic to a standstill in the main comic while weakened, and was stated to have outright beaten Super Sonic when they fought in the Sonic Universe comic.

• We know Super Sonic fought together with Super Silver and Super Shadow against Solaris due to '06 being canon. Implying they should all be on par with each other.

• Finally Super Sonic needed Chip’s help to fight Dark Gaia in the post-reboot comic.

Sonic himself also has outright said that he lacks experience with techniques like Chaos Control/Chaos manipulation. In fact Sonic has almost never used any specific Chaos abilities in Archie, outside nullifying the Genesis Waves or trying to fix Sigma’s damage to space-time. Most Super forms just having a similar baseline of power have also been backed up in interviews. The only entities portrayed as “stronger” than average Super forms are Master Mogul and Enerjak, and even then only moderately so. Mogul simply required a 3-on-1 fight and Super Sonic can put up a decent fight against Enerjak on his own. Nothing suggests any of these forms have had deviations of powers in the millions or billions of times.

But Silver is one of the weaker Chaos Energy manipulators?

It really doesn’t make sense for Silver to be so “bad” at Chaos Energy manipulation that he would be weaker than other characters by orders of magnitudes ranging in the hundreds of millions of times. His training with Mogul was specifically using his powers for energy manipulation and he manipulates the Chaos Energy of a person much stronger than him (Enerjak) back at him as a weapon (which outright shows he can manipulate Chaos Energy just fine). He was also trained by Mogul to use a multitude of similar mystic objects to the Emeralds (Power Rings are based on Chaos Energy, The Warp Rings are Chaos Magic technology and Time Stones essentially just perform a more complicated Chaos Control). Many of Silver's powers also already have effects over space/time even without any magic McGuffins.

Likewise in Sonic '06’s storyline he also learns Chaos Control instinctively, and without even being told what the ability is (heck in the games specifically he time travels via using Chaos Control, something even Shadow can’t do without help).

I’m still not sure Super Silver would scale to Super Sonic?

Super Mega Man was shown to be on par with Super Sonic and was able to Chaos Control his infinite multiverse back to normal only seconds after his first Super transformation and having the concept of Chaos Control explained to him. Given Silver’s natural affinity for time/space manipulation and energy manipulation abilities, it stands to reason that he could have done the same under the same circumstances. Even if you where to argue Mega Man's innate adaptability was a factor in his handling of Chaos Power, Silver still fought Solaris, who was confirmed to have consumed the entire Archie multiverse in the encyclopedia anyway. Silver doesn’t have to scale directly to Sonic to reach those levels of power.

Multiversal feats aren't consistent in Archie Sonic

Obviously we have the Super Genesis Wave(which was caused by the 7 emeralds), which was confirmed to have affected all of Sonic’s multiverse. But Super Sonic Special 7 we also had the Master Emerald being able to collapse infinite realities. Solaris is still stated to have eaten all space/time in Archie, Mogul was stated to be a threat to the entire multiverse when he had control over the Chaos Force, the Archie version of the Jeweled Scepter also negated some of the effects of the Super Genesis Wave on the Sol Dimension. There’s honestly like 4-5 feats on this level.

Chaos abilities only apply to hax not power

Mogul was capable of physically crushing universes when he had control over the Chaos Force. You can also def apply that power towards energy blasts or physical attacks if needed. Heck Hyper knuckles original tagline was that his Super form specifically made him “stronger”.

Do Super forms have a time limit? Can Trunks outlast Super Silver?

They do. It’s mentioned in the encyclopedia, the Evil Super Sonic formed in Issue 126 dissipates because the time limit runs out, Sonic references Super forms having a time limit multiple times when fighting Super Scourge. It also comes up post-reboot after Super Sonic fights Dark Gaia and the form runs out of energy. That said, it does last much longer in Archie, as Super Sonic was able to last hours. This is shown as Super Sonic was able to fight Enerjak from midday to sundown. So Super forms in Archie can last a few hours at least, since Sonic used his from daylight to sunset. Silver has plenty of time.

What about time manipulation? Could Trunks shorten the duration of the super form.

Archie Super forms already have time manipulation powers. Super Sonic reversed time when he undid the original Genesis Wave. Super/Ultra Sonic also sped up time once when using a Super Emerald. Chaos Control itself is time manipulation. Silver’s powers also insulated him from the time-based powers of the second Time Eater. It’s likely Silver’s Super form would be fine to any attempted temporal tampering.

Cosmology comparison

How big are both multiverses

Archie Sonic’s multiverse is confirmed to have infinite timelines. It also has numerous extra-dimensional worlds outside those timelines such as the (likely infinite) extra-dimensional worlds upheld by the Maginary Stone/Maginaryworld and higher dimensions like the Chaos Force. Additionally there’s also separate infinite multiverses outside Sonic’s like Mega Man’s, and some dimensions outside both these multiverses like the Skull Egg Zone. Individual universes in Sonic’s world also have pocket dimensions like the Zone of Silence/Special Zone which have stars or have been called universes in their own right. 

Xenoverse/Heroes is a bit more convoluted. Obviously you have the main set of 12 “macrocosm universes” in singular timelines like the canon series (some which have pocket dimensions like the time chamber). However the number of timelines is larger than the main canon and includes most Dragon Ball properties as potential timelines. That said, the number of timelines recorded in the “Scrolls of Eternity” in Chronoa’s time nest are explicitly finite, even if we’ve only had vague descriptions of the number. This concept has been stated in Online, Xenoverse and Heroes.

https://mangadex.org/chapter/3be5d0a8-2cf4-4009-bcc0-d97fc471b1de/16 

Heroes

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24479 

“Chronicles 1: Because Mira interfered with history everywhere he went, the resulting myriad Time Paradox was putting a strain on the limited capacity of the entire universe.”

Online

https://imgur.com/ylawt11

Xenoverse

The entire premise of the “Time Patrol” in all Xeno media, is that you need to prevent people from messing with time, because creating timeline splits multiplies the Scrolls of Eternity and causes cosmic instability. 

https://mangadex.org/chapter/fc4679df-08a9-40d4-9b43-4a7191dabae0/26  

That said Xenoverse 1 and 2 does establish the idea of “lesser” timelines called Parallax Quests (which are side effects of Time Patrol missions in main timelines) and timelines that exist in separate time-spaces from the Scrolls of Eternity, which can be interpreted to be infinite. So it is still possible to argue Heroes has infinite timelines. That said, “infinite timelines” isn’t as straightforward as Archie Sonic (and technically could still be nitpicked if you “really” wanted to).  

Anyway outside of those Dragon Ball timelines you also have the “Crack of Time” which is stated to exist outside of normal time/space.

Several characters were stated to be beyond space/time?

This promo for Demigra says he waits at an adventure's end beyond space/time, because you fight him in the Crack of Time at the end of the game, which is outside normal space/time. Mira and Towa being stated to transcend time or exist outside it, is largely referring to their personal timelines being disconnected from the timelines of other universes or being able to travel across timelines with little restrictions, not them being higher dimensional in a verse sense. It’s a common figure of speech used for characters that have mastered time travel.

Don’t the world guides say Heaven/Earth/Kai world exist outside of time? Are universes in Dragon Ball infinite. Isn’t the world of the void infinite?

All 12 universes, the void, the hyperbolic time chamber, etc., all exist on a single timeline. They don’t exist outside of time. This is pretty evident by the fact “Z/Super Future Trunks” had his own versions of Beerus, the Supreme Kais, and even the Omni-King. Along with the fact Zeno destroying Super Trunks' timeline didn’t affect any of this things in the main timeline's cosmology. You also go to the Tournament of Power on certain scroll timelines that have been recorded in Xenoverse.

The different locations on the DB map are separated by barriers of sorts, which you “normally” can't cross without certain abilities, strength or authority. For example Goku falls into hell during Z filler, and a cloud barrier prevents him from traveling back to Snake Way. This is what people mean by DBZ having multiple spaces/times. It's more along the lines of having multiple adjacent pocket dimensions taking up the same space. Freeza actually alluded to something like this recently in the Super manga, where he stated being in a Hyperbolic Time Chamber was similar to leaving Universe 7, despite it also clearly not being on a separate timeline altogether (which is ironically how pocket dimensions work in Archie Sonic).

Likewise while there are some statements you could use to argue singular universes being infinite in Dragon Ball, this can be contested, as they’ve been stated to have centers and edges by Bulma (when she suggested scanning the universe to find the Super Dragon Balls). 

• DBS ep 29 21:05 Bulma explains that Earth is on the edge of the universe and that to find the Super Dragon Balls they need to move the radar more towards the center.

• Bulma says the universe has an edge in the manga iUGZspq.png (420×293) (imgur.com)

The world of the void similarly can also be contested on translation. As some translations claim it’s “eternal” rather than infinite. Essentially giving measurement of “time” for its existence rather than a measurement of volume.

That said, even if we go for broke and say that “space” in a single Dragon Ball timeline is infinite, similar statements do exist in Archie that imply that their universes are also infinite.

The Demon Realm is outside time.

The Demon Realm exists at the bottom of Universe 7s macrocosm and you can see it labeled on cosmology maps. When Chronoa says it’s “sealed off from time”, she probably meant that the rules of physics are different there, that space/time rules work differently at that location (which makes sense since the Demon Realm's rules are stated in canon to be odd) or that it's been somehow isolated from the rest of the universe (which matches up with Freeza's explanation of how time chambers are somewhat isolated from the rest of the universe). It’s clearly shown in the manga that the time patrol expected the Demon Realm to exist on the timeline recorded by the time scrolls and it disappearing when Chronoa sent it to the Crack of Time was a surprise to them. 

The world guide books also state the demon realm exists on the mortal plane.

"A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World."

The Time Nest is outside time

The Time Nest also exists in Universe 7. Chronoa states the Time Nest is at the edge of the universe. 

There are multiple multiverses in Heroes because Xenoverse and Heroes are canon to each other.

Online, Xenoverse and Heroes all share the same “basic lore”, cosmology and concepts, but they are not canon to each other. They are separate continuities and characters like Fu and Dabura have totally different roles between them. Likewise the Heroes manga outright states there can only be “one” Kai of Time regardless of the number of timelines. You can’t have multiple Chronoa’s fulfilling the same role in a single cosmology on separate timelines in a way that makes sense. Nothing in eithers storyline has ever suggested this to be the case either.

I’ve also seen people argue that scans from this blog...

User blog:Ottavio Merluzzo/Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse/Fusions Cosmology Blog | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom 

…Indicates that both Xenoverse and Heroes co-exist, but I feel like these miss some context. First off the 2014 V-jump issues that mention Xeno Trunks joining DB Heroes is likely because Heroes ORIGINALLY had nothing to do with Xenoverse at all. The first original arcs that started involving Xenoverse content was Jaaku mission 6 which would have seen release around late 2014-2015, coinciding with when the first Xenoverse came out. Since Xeno Trunks was more established/marketed as being from Xenoverse it makes sense that his debut in Heroes would acknowledge he originated from that game "out of universe". In layman's terms this add is talking about the introduction of the Xeno Trunks/Xeno concepts we follow in the rest of the original storylines of Dragon Ball Heroes. Not the "version" of Xeno Trunks that specifically lived through the events of Xenoverse 1 and 2.

Likewise Future Gohanks are just a case of cross promotion. As mentioned earlier many characters are shared and collaborated on between the staff of both series because they’re working on the same franchise and share the same base lore. Heck many games dealing with the Heroes/Xenoverse concepts as a whole are one offs that don’t always make great lengths to connect to everything else in a coherent way.

A good way to think of Online, Xenoverse and Heroes is the MCU Multiverse, Marvel Comic multiverse and Spider-Verse multiverse. They’re all based on the same property, with the same basic ideas, but conflict too much with each other to all exist in the same cosmology at once. 

But isn’t the “real world” Beat comes from in Heroes a higher dimension?

The timeline Beat comes from is a future version of the GT timeline. It’s not a higher dimension. This has been established since Dragon Ball Heroes first started, with GT being the chosen timeline because the Dragon Ball Heroes series was created before Super was conceptualized. This blog does a good job of breaking everything down, but I’ll explain it here as well.

Dragon Ball Heroes' very first narrative spin-off (Victory Mission) has cameos from the GT “Hero’s Legacy” character Puck, takes place in “Satan City” ( a recurring location in Dragon Ball canon) and directly tells the reader the Dragon Ball Heroes game is based on events in history that have now become mythologized.

The arcade machines in most of these games specifically have the Capsule Corp logo, because they’re made by a future version of Capsule Corp. You even work with a member of said company in one of the spin-offs. They are space/time transfer devices, which is how they interact with Dragon Ball history.

World Mission directly shows the Xeno Characters (like Trunks) are “real” characters in Beat's world. Then tells you near the end that Goku is Beat’s ancestor and that Beat’s world is just a future version of Xeno Goku’s timeline (who’s essentially GT Goku).

The only big argument you can use to the contrary is the promotional ads for World Mission X conflating Beat and the player's “world” together. But in the actual storyline of World Mission X it's made pretty obvious that Xeno Trunks has been to Beat's world before, as he describes the location, showing he’s been there before.

“Damn... it transcended space and went to a different world as well... the stadium of "your world" is now an abandoned building, right? That's because of the effects of "dark energy", the evil ki leaking from this world.”

Other cases quoted are typically just readers taking authors' in-universe self inserts too seriously.

What about the “real worlds” in Reincarnated Yamcha and the “Real 4D”

The “real world” in Yamcha probably isn’t a higher dimension either, given the real world characters only get involved in the Dragon Ball plot via Beerus and Whis interfering.  Likewise it’s a bit dubious to take the “audience” in the Real 4D, essentially a 4th wall breaking amusement attraction ride.

Chamel plays Ultimate Mission X in a manga, thereby proving the real world is higher dimensional 

This manga is just a tongue and cheek promotional comic for upcoming Heroes games. Multiple characters present from the Heroes storyline promoted various Dragon Ball games/manga, such as Fu. It’s a one off comic that doesn’t connect to anything. “Chamel” transcending the fiction of the game he’s a major character in also wouldn’t even make sense.

But what if we did consider the Heroes “real world” a higher dimension

Even if we were going to go this route of considering the “real world” a higher dimension(or anything similar like Reincarnated Yamcha and six flags Broly), you can do the same with Archie Sonic. As a “real world” dimension exists in the comic Sonic Live and Sonic himself often broke the 4th wall to interact with the reader in early comic issues.

Wait Sonic's cosmology is comparable to DC

No. DC was just used as an example because the casual audience is familiar with it. DC's cosmology being larger than Sonic's is explicitly why Sonic lost to Wally West for example.

Stat comparison

Who has the AP advantage?

The Chaos Emeralds at their peak can affect all of Sonic’s infinite multiverse including the extra dimensions of Maginaryworld, and the  higher dimensional Chaos Force. They can also affect separate multiverses like Mega Man’s infinite multiverse and the Skull Egg Zone outside both. The Super Genesis wave hitting all of this has also been confirmed by the series writer Ian when asked.

Dragon Ball Heroes does have villains or characters that have affected or controlled all timelines (Demigra, Mechikabura, Chamel), but they’ve only be confirmed to at most damage locations like the Crack of Time (they say it’s in danger of being destroyed in the first Xenoverse game, but shows up just fine in 2).

On a whole the Chaos Emeralds have worked on a larger cosmology, making them a stronger power source than what Trunks normally has. It’s also technically easier to make most cosmology arguments in Archie Sonic’s favor because the context of its higher dimensional arguments or timelines is often more clear-cut and doesn’t require fighting the story’s premises like Heroes does (i.e. the stated goals of the Time Patrol). Even assuming Mechikabura's consumption of time extended to the Crack of Time, it still wouldn't match. Plus Mechikabura's hitting the crack of time is debatable since his black hole was only specified to consume time anyway. There's also kind of the fridge logic that the time labyrinth moves send characters to the crack in time, which probably where Mechikabura was sent when Trunks' sealed him with the move(Implying it wasn't destroyed, since he's imprisoned there).

Who’s faster?

Sonic Man ran through a time stop with no Chaos Energy and it was later confirmed that this was just via speed, no innate resistance. Given Sonic Man would have to travel a set distance under 0 seconds, that would make his speed infinite. Mammoth Mogul channeling the power of one Chaos Emerald was also able to strike and defeat the Ancient Walkers, who exist outside of normal linear space/time in the Chaos Force. Super Silver should scale above both due to having more Chaos Energy at his disposal as Super Silver.

Most of the best speed feats in Dragon Ball and even Heroes are mostly still quantifiable numbers.

Isn’t Goku infinite speed via negging Hit’s time skip?

Most time manipulation abilities in Dragon Ball are countered by being stronger than the opponent casting it, rather than being a result of pure speed. Though in a few rare instances characters just have innate resistance to time manipulation or an item that grants resistance.

This concept is first brought up in Super manga when Whis states Hit’s time skip is less effective on those with a power gap. Then again later when Jiren counters Hit’s time cage move during the Tournament of Power.

You also see this happen in Heroes when Chronoa tries to use a time stop on Mira, but he just flexes out of it. Or how the Key Sword just outright nullifies a time stop used on Trunks.

This is pretty consistent with Dragon Ball characters creating rifts in space with pure power. Even Heroes itself outright just has SS4 start to affect space/time by powering up.

What about immeasurable speed Dark Dragon Balls or Chronoa?

These arguments with the Dark Dragon Balls and Chronoa only got started up recently. That said we generally tend to avoid “time traveled via pure speed” debates because a lot of times those kinds of arguments conflate the movement of objects or characters with time travel abilities a character can simply activate whenever they want.  Chronoa herself for example can time travel at will, so saying she was moving at "immeasurable speeds" just because she happened to time travel while flying is being very generous. Particularly given it was never stated her time traveling was due to speed in this instance.

Dragon Balls likewise are magic, so the fact they can cross between timelines isn't that surprising. It's mainly just a case of people taking the fact the story said they "flew" to other timelines very literally, and applying speed to it, when again the story never says their time travel abilities is because of "speed". The Dark Shenron that they summon has even granted several wishes that deal with space/time alteration.

It’s also worth noting that in the same manga both the Dark Dragon Balls and Chronoa feat come from (Dark Demon Realm), Trunks explicitly needs to give time travel stones called “Cracks in Time” to the other Time Patrollers so they can return home and they specifically state they'll ask Chronoa to send them home latter. They can’t return to their own time periods just by flying. Generally speaking most of the Time Patrol do not naturally have chronological abilities. Their time travel is typically done via time machine (sometimes large vehicles, and sometimes small ones that create an almost instant transmission like effect), Scrolls of Eternity, Cracks in Time, Dragon Ball Heroes technology or via Chronoa’s assistance. It's also a plot point that you need to use specific sanctioned forms of time travel to avoid making dangerous distortions(it's pretty much the reason Trunks was arrested in the first place). At most some characters are able to open rifts in dimensions with brute force Gogeta/Super Buu style.

Couldn’t Trunks scale to infinite/immeasurable speed given Demigra had control over all space/time and Mechikabura absorbed all space-time?

I think these two feats do have merit actually. But If you were to count both of those as speed for Trunks, we would have to give the same levity to Silver. Solaris, Super Sonic’s Chaos Control and the Super Genesis Wave also affected or absorbed all time/space in Sonic’s cosmology, which is much larger than Trunks’, making Silver's speed scaling still better overall regardless. It's also worth pointing out that arguments like this have only been begun to be taken more seriously recently on some vs forums(though we where aware of it as a possibility). Episodes are made weeks in advanced(and we did ask about potentially adding a black box explaining our stance for it in the episode).

Hax comparisons

Who has the better time travel abilities?

Silver probably has a slight advantage. Both characters can travel between locations, timelines, and time periods but Silver can at least sense when people nearby are utilizing time travel via the Time Stone and can sense disturbances in space/time from different time periods. He also has a device that can track disturbances in space/time like Genesis Portals and perform basic navigation. Trunks typically needs Chronoa to do a lot of the navigating for him.

Can Trunks circumvent Super Silver or kill him via time travel?

Most likely not. Because Silver is “decoupled”  from time, he’s not affected by changes to the timeline.  This includes his own timeline, as he’s once told about how he did something in an altered timeline that he himself does not remember. So Trunks ironically can NOT pull the same trick Wally West did to kill Archie Sonic.

It’s also worth noting that the explanation of Silver generally not being affected by alterations to the timeline is fairly consistent among all of Silver’s appearances in all Sonic media. For example, as supplementary evidence during the Metal Virus in his IDW book (which is written by the same people as Archie), literally everyone on Earth dies from that virus before Silver’s time period. But he’s still around. In the games Silver also regularly comes back to help because he’s clearly aware the timeline has been changed. This is commented on from time to time in interviews.

• https://youtu.be/oquRdkgF2zM?t=2654

• https://youtu.be/Lqh3doQ301Q?list=PLkRz3X7ikqW0k8R2riKkpZpAhTVdvsMV5&t=1029

• https://youtu.be/QDobtwaMQuc?t=1796 

• https://youtu.be/BUlnM8pOii0?t=879 

(Time Travel-Related Plot Hole Avoidance 101 to the rescue!)

Well Trunks also has acausal resistance, so Silver wouldn’t be able to kill him either.

It’s debatable. In the Xenoverse games Xeno Trunks is explicitly almost wiped from the timeline via somebody messing with his history.  Granted in the Heroes storyline you could argue he does have resistance given he’s fairly “ok” when Mechikabura absorbs all timelines. Though on the flip side again the new villain Aeros in Heroes seems to make it a specific point that altering/erasing the timeline a character comes from can kill them.

That said entities that exist above/outside of normal space/time like the Ancient Walkers have been killed using Chaos Energy, so Silver can probably do the same to Trunks if needed. 

Can Silver counter Trunks’ DBH abilities and summons?

Most likely yes. The summons from Dragon Ball Heroes rely on the Hero Switch and other card based DBH-aligned technology to function (typically when not using the Hero Switch you'll normally see a character use the arcade machines, before activating their avatars/cards. Or at least be in their DBH avatar before fighting). Given Silver’s power can disable electronic devices, he can technically nullify it that way. Even the Victory Mission manga shows that DBH summons are utilized via cards that can be corrupted or destroyed (and are also tech-based with electrical charges). Given Silver’s powers can work on nanites (which are extremely small), he should be able to disrupt them.

• Victory Mission Ch. 21 - Characters outside the game world look at a fight inside it. Froze’s game card is destroyed http://vjump.shueisha.co.jp/push/dbh/mission21.html 

It’s also worth noting that the characters summoned by these cards are not literally those characters in their entirety. Each Dragon Ball Heroes card comes with a specific set of attacks and abilities already equipped. If you a Goku, It may be a Goku from a specific time period, with SS3, a support ability and a spirit bomb. Not his entire arsenal from over 30+ years. Because DBH is a card game in universe with balances and ranks between characters. The vast majority of Trunks' card summons could also be sent away by using Chaos Control or Chronos Control anyway.

The only exception could be subspace summons, which open a rift other characters can enter through. Though frankly Silver can pretty easily close rifts in space with his powers, so it’s not a guarantee Trunks could use those easily either. They're also implied to mostly be activated through the use of cards/technology as well.

On a separate note while card summons are obviously on the table, summoning the "actual" members of the time Patrol to fight with him is def more pushing it. If we where to go that far we could bring up the fact that technically Chaos emeralds/energy can also create Super level character duplicates as well.

What about Trunks' stamina reducing abilities or stat moves (Reduce stamina to zero!)

Power Rings and Chaos Emeralds increase strength/speed, and counter most corruptive influences like dark magic (in fact this was mentioned somewhat in Wally/Sonic that Power Rings could restore Sonic’s lost speed). It’s likely they would block out most general physical-based status effects and in a worst case they literally have “infinite energy” to supply anyway. 

Chaos Emeralds have also been used by Mammoth Mogul to block the effects of Eggman’s Egg Grapes, which drain life energy, and soul energy on himself and his allies(the Destructix). I'll also specify that this panel is not of Mogul's allies. All of Mogul allies survived the Egg Grapes without injury except Naugus (who was mentally damaged, but not killed). The Destructix ALL show up in comics set after this event. The comic encyclopedia states this was because Mogul chose to prioritized protecting himself  and the Destructix, while choosing to stop protecting Naugus. It's stated outright he did this in the encyclopedia written by the same person who wrote the original comic. It really is not that complicated.

Enerjak also resists the Egg Grapes, and while he was somewhat drained, this was only when he was disoriented and not actively protecting himself. It’s also important to note that after being drained he immediately made a trip for the Master Emerald to recharge. Which pretty heavily implies he could have recharged right away if he already had the master emeralds with him.

That's not to say Superforms have never been drained. But it's typically been done with devices tailored for chaos energy, like a chaos siphon. Or the sword of acorns with is a much more powerful actifact created with the a mystical substance called the source of all.(Which is pretty much stated to be the building block of sonics multiverse). The order of magnitude is much greater.

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It should be also noted that in most Dragon Ball games the “stamina meter” typically correlates to the Ki meter (for individual characters in Heroes, though you also have a “group” energy meter). It's more like the stamina bar in Dark Souls. It's also less "absorption" and more a minor status effect or minor posture break. These abilities typically do not drain all power from opponents like a Metroid. In gameplay it simply makes an opponent winded for a few seconds, before allowing them to catch their breath and continue fighting.  Trunks also does not absorb this "stamina" for himself and losing all your stamina doesn't disable all transformations in the game(as you can see with Ultra Instinct Goku in this trailer). Even then Transformations in Dragon Ball work significantly different than Superforms. Dragon Ball Transformations normally need to be constantly upheld by the user, so it makes sense that if you stun them for a second they might drop out. Super forms don't work like that, because they come from an outside power source you don't need to mentally maintain. The stamina abilities really just don't work the way people argue they do.

Can’t Dragon Ball Heroes characters manipulate probability?

Most of the character cards in Heroes have status buff moves along the lines of “lowers opponent's accuracy, increase hit rate, increase critical rate, etc”. It’s honestly more along the lines of using sand attack or focus energy in Pokemon, than altering the fabric of reality GER style. At most chronoa may have time manipulation powers of this nature the Keyword could scale to. But it's likely those powers would be similar to the super genisis wave anyway.

Doesn't Trunks have tons of status buff and healing options?

Silver matches Trunks in most of these areas. The biggest game changers for Trunks would be Senzu beans, KO-healing card RPG abilities, or abilities that boost Ki/stamina. But Rings/Chaos Emeralds/Super forms already provide pretty much infinite stamina/energy as long as they’re active and can technically revive the dead. A Super form also lasts for hours at a time, so it’s likely he would still outlast Trunks anyway.

Even with DBZ stamina feats,they normally don't last that long against opponents much stronger than them.

This would also hold true for potential items Trunks could have as well. Though most items in Xenoverse and Heroes typically belong to the "player character" rather than Trunks specifically anyway.

What about scaling chains/multipliers for Trunks

The main reason for the power difference in this fight is cosmology and dimensional tiers(yeah I know scary). Multiplying power levels isn’t a huge factor and kinda gets convoluted anyway. Most of the multiversal feats in Xenoverse/Heroes were generally done by endgame villains spread out between multiple continuities(Demigra, Mechikabura, Fu and Chamel respectively). A lot of the larger scaling chains bank on criss-crossing characters and events that technically have no chronological connection. Not to mention the constant influx of random characters makes establishing scale chains pretty speculative anyway, because telling whether characters increase in increments or significant amounts is difficult when you don’t have finite numbers to work with.

Can’t Trunks time travel on his own?

Most media suggests no. Typically he’s always seen using time machines, Time Scrolls, Cracks of Time, the armband mentioned in the episode, or some kind of other magic MacGuffin. I’m aware there’s an argument people have made that he can fly through time on VS wiki, but the locations mentijust a oned all seem to mostly be part of a singular universe's macrocosm and have cuts between scenes anyway. As far as I can tell nothing states the was traveling through time via speed either,it's mostly an assumption.

Does Trunks know instant transmission?

There's a few cases where Trunks just appears in locations out of nowhere. This is probably via time patroller space/time tech, which has a similar look from an outside view.

Can’t Trunks also redirect energy attacks?

In FighterZ you can deflect basic Ki blasts and attacks, but “in universe” this generally requires some physical effort, because you're essentially overpowering a blow to deflect it. You also normally wouldn’t be able to hijack the trajectory of ki moves outside of knocking them in a given direction. It’s not nearly as effective as Silver’s ability to effortlessly guide energy in any direction he wants.

Key Sword Questions

Can the Key sword seal away Silver’s powers?

I think it’s probably unlikely. Being in super form protected Mega Man and Sonic from the effects of the Super Genesis Wave, which could erase people from existence and alter reality with no apparent limits.  I'll also clarify that the episode wasn't referring to the moment when Sonic's reality collapsed and Sonic/his universe where reset(the moment post-gen started). It was referring to earlier in the comic when when the wave is first activated, and the Skull Egg Zone/surrounding Characters where all erased in a white light and Sonic/Megaman where left alone fighting the Drs in their Superform in a space like void. Essentially everything up until the part Sonic/Megaman say the wave finished altering everything and that they should will things back to normal with chaos control. The idea as a whole is that the emeralds reality warping properties can match the reality warping powers of key sword.

Anyway given the wave affected Mega Man’s multiverse, as well as Sonic’s which is already larger than Dragon Ball, that should be enough to suggest the sealing power wouldn’t work.

It’s also worth noting that Feist (a superform level character) could nullify Shadow’s chaos powers, but only until he got his hands on a chaos emerald. After which shadow could bypass the power nullification. It’s unlikely Trunks could sever Silver’s connection to chaos energy.

But other characters in archie have sealed or stolen the powers of other chaos energies

Every time a chaos entity has been easily nullified, it’s generally because they were targeted by an weapon or artifact that was tailored to counteract chaos energy specifically. This is most commonly the chaos siphon and the sword of the acorns(The second of which was made from a special material that created the Sonic multiverse). Even then both of these methods aren't always foolproof as chaos siphons can sometimes be overloaded. The key sword is mainly focused around sealing powers, not forcibly draining energy.

But the Key Sword does have energy absorption abilities?

I’ve seen this link on vs wiki, but upon further inspection I couldn't find further elaboration. The person using the Key sword can use their own ki to amplify its power during the attack linked in that picture, which is probably why some sites like vs wiki list Ki absorption as an ability(It could also be the fact it “awakens' ' by several gods sending power to it as well). I haven't seen much evidence of it forcibly removing energy from an opponent.

Can Trunks seal Silver using the eternal time labyrinth?

Probably not. The eternal time labyrinth is simply a stronger variant of the “time labyrinth” move originally created by Chronoa.

Chronoa “most likely” used a version of this move on Demigra in both the Xenoverse and Heroes continuities. In both cases it was stated Demigra was eventually able to escape due to powerful space/time distortions in space.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pB7YzzsqFk9GPXRDRGi0xOryysoD-VaJSfIJpQUuWaI/edit?usp=sharing

"Trunks (Xeno): The Kaioshin of Time sealed Mechikaboola and herself in the Time Labyrinth… We need to find a way to rescue her…

Old Kaioshin: It might be possible to access the “Time Labyrinth” using Majin Demigra’s cane and Tokitoki’s power… Though you folks sealed Demigra in the Crack of Time. (Tokitoki flies in.) Tokitoki: Tooo, Tooo! Old Kaioshin: Ooh, Tokitoki, is that a “Time Scroll?” How is this possible! Demigra has been restored from the Crack of Time?! I don’t know the reason, but it seems that the Crack of Time temporarily produced a space-time distortion…! Trunks: How could this have happened…! However, this might be convenient… Let’s hurry and go to where Demigra is!"

Fu also got out of a time labyrinth by getting the God Bird Dogi Dogi to use space/time powers to break out. Considering the combined power of the chaos emeralds and time stone, Silver should be able to nullify it. Chaos emeralds can also travel outside of Sonic’s multiverse(as Eggman sent one to Dr.Wily in Megaman’s multiverse during the first crossover), which is beyond the scope of what Heroes characters are normally able to travel.

Likewise even assuming the sealing move used on Demigra was somehow different or the Fu escaping was due to Dogi Dogi breaking it from the outside. Assuming the seal would work on any character regardless of how much stronger they are is a NLF. Chaos energy can also seal characters or trap them in statis indefinitely, and the Chaos emeralds are stronger than the Keysword as a whole. The similar abilities and higher degree of power should be enough for Silver to overpower it regardless.

Can’t the key sword control fate to always hit an opponent

The belief in this is probably a misunderstanding. Heroes has a gameplay mechanic called Charge impact battle, which determines if you deal extra damage with your attack or if the opponent blocks. It’s essentially the offense/defense meter from the Budokai games. People seem to have conflated this with the sword being able to always hit an opponent via altering probability, when it’s just a gameplay mechanic 

Can Silver counter all the keywords other hax?

Most likely yes. Assuming the awakened Keywords has all the combined powers of those who contributed energy to it. It should have time stops, mind control, soul manipulation and time manipulation.

Ring/Chaos energy can undo mind control. Super level characters also have resistance to soul/life/poison energy manipulation as mentioned earlier with the egg grapes. BFR, Sealing, Reality warping Chaos emeralds can do as well.

Silver's powers also seem to specifically counteract and insulate him from time based powers. As shown by his ability to close genesis portals, ability to block the second time eaters time based corruption powers and his slight resistance to time stops(he remains conscious if they’re used on his base form}. He should technically scale to Sonic’s multiverse wide chaos control resets if he needed, which is comparable in scope to anything Chronoa or Toki Toki have done with their powers, etc.

Isn't the key sword's hax layered?

The general idea is that since the Super Genesis wave is more powerful than anything in Heroes(cause cosmology), that resisting that is a better "feat" and beyond the scope of what the Key Sword has been shown to affect. 

For example what's more impressive. Mind controlling a person who's resisted mind control or mind controlling the entire population of an entire universe at once.

Summary

It is honestly pretty simple. Silver has a super form, because 06 was canon to the comic. His super form should be just as strong as any other super form in the series. Super forms in Archie are stronger and faster than Heroes characters, and have a lot of resistance to the hax they use. Plus Silver’s own powers are a good counter to Trunks Ki, time and tech based arsenal. I would also probably say that “a lot” of claims about Heroes tend to come from blurry Japanese snapshots/adds that most people can't read, wierdly contextualized moments or somewhat generous interpretations of vague events. I realize it comes off as a lot of "this doesn't count", but it's kinda like how Sailor Galaxia had A LOT of misinformation surrounding her because most people hear about Sailor Moon secondhand without reading the material themselves and can't tell when certain arguments are being fairly generous or factually inaccurate. This goes even more so for Dragon Ball, because it's a very power scaling centric series.

Archie Sonic is honestly way more straightforward, easy to read and well sourced in arguments I've seen. Many things about cosmology or speed feats have also been confirmed more securely.

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