Does Jon really scale to Anakaris, the Huitzil units, and other B+ Class Darkstalkers?
Yes, he does. They all have the same Darkstalkers rank. This alone should be reasonable grounds for them to scale, and infer they’re in the same ballpark of power. The Darkstalkers Graphic File, and Dmitri being classified as a lower ranked Darkstalker after getting de-powered, makes it pretty unambiguous that Darkstalker ranks gauge the power of characters.
It’s further corroborated by Jon blitzing multiple Huitzil units in the Darkstalkers OVA. The OVA doesn’t have Huitzil’s interstellar travel feat from the games, but the machines have the same backstory and lore in the OVA and the games. Meaning they should be capable of the same interstellar travel feat (or at the very least interstellar travel). A single Huitzil also went toe to toe with Anakaris in the UDON comics. To the point that Anakaris wanted to return to his tomb and rest after their fight.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Darkstalkers-The-Night-Warriors/Issue-1?id=84677#13
Yes, these two instances are from different media and canon, but like we said, the rankings alone should be enough to show the scaling is reasonable. The other media fights are there as corroborating evidence.
Anakaris only sank 3 pyramids.
The ending for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Xm3kx1OGQ
Anakaris sunk a lot more than just 3 pyramids. The Darkstalkers Graphic File explicitly states that he made his country and all the people within it, “Vanish off the face of the earth”. It’s of course revealed in his Darkstalkers 3 ending that he actually pulled his country underground and into the future. And we can get Kinetic/Potential Energy for that, which is what we did.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/646147443003490323/743174450056265860/DS_Classes5.png
Keep in mind, it’s also established Anakaris’ Egypt was a lot more prosperous and populous than the real life ancient Egypt. It was basically an ancient utopia. The Darkstalkers Graphic File states Anakaris had 60 million laborers at his beck and call just to make his own pyramid.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/646147443003490323/743176569895387177/Anakaris2.PNG
For comparison, the entire labor force of real life ancient Egypt’s pyramids is estimated to have been anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 workers.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/who-built-the-pyramids/
Anakaris’ country being this big, tracks pretty well with the huge crowd of citizens honoring him in his DS1 ending.
https://youtu.be/SsxCkSg2lhI?t=62
Obviously the contents of this ending, like Anakaris getting Pyron's power, is non-canon. But the kingdom numbers and the war fought is canon.
Please also note, the calcs we made to estimate the weight and Potential Energy of sinking Egypt only factored in the collective weight of the civilization’s citizens, the presumed weight of the average Egyptian household (multiplied by ¼ of the population since obviously not everyone had one), and the average weight of the 138 known real-life Egyptian pyramids. Which might sound like a lot, but it isn’t even factoring in the weight of the Ancient Library of Alexandria, Egypt’s merchant buildings, temples, or the countless number of other structures the ancient Egyptians built, and that Anakaris’ country would need to operate.
So, needless to say, the calcs are all pretty substantial low-balls, and they can still net anywhere from 1.6 Megatons (on the veeeeery low end) to 3 Gigatons.
Anyone who wants to look over the full calc can see it here. Obviously
there are a lot of different results you could get from it. But
considering most VS. Sites used to list Anakaris and other B+ Class
Darkstalkers at Country Level purely off the merit that Anakaris sank
Egypt, we're not sure how City or Island Level would seem that absurd.
Moreover, narratively speaking, Anakaris sunk his kingdom to preserve it from outside forces. In Ancient Egypt, pyramids were used as tombs for rulers and offerings towards the Gods, nothing more. It wouldn’t make sense for Anakaris to want to “save” his entire kingdom, but only sink what is the equivalent of three grave sites.
Anakaris sunk his country, but there’s no time frame for how long it took. He could have done it over time.
It literally states in the graphic file that Anakaris' country suddenly disappears off the face of the Earth. The entire point of his country disappearing is that it's a big historical mystery. The buildings were there one moment, then gone the next. There isn’t even a concrete date for when exactly it happened. It makes zero sense for it to have been done over an extended period of time.
Given Anakaris was warring with neighbors at the time, if he were to have done this feat over time, wouldn't it stand to reason that neighboring cities and countries would have seen Egypt's structures disappearing over time, and thus have recorded seeing the structures as they continued to disappear into the ground? Wouldn’t the mystery of where his country went not be a mystery? Wouldn’t there be a rough date/year for when neighboring nations began to see structures and buildings sink? Common sense strongly favors him doing it in one go. And the speed in which the pyramids sank is pretty solid time frame for it all.
If Anakaris’ DS1 ending is non-canon, shouldn’t his DS3 ending, where he sinks his country, be non-canon too?
Darkstalkers canon is a mess, but of all the endings, it can be assured that Anakaris’ DS3 ending happened in some capacity. His country disappearing is literally laid out in a timeline in the Darkstalkers Graphic file, and occurs thousands of years ago in the series’ lore thanks to Jedah sending him a telekinetic message from the future (it’s a long story).
https://prnt.sc/vaj52h
But Jon is not MFTL+
In the Darkstalkers Graphic File, it states that Pyron flies from Hellstorm to Earth at light speed for 200 million years. Now we don't have an exact distance for Hellstorm, but this was Pyron's cruising speed.
At a mid-end, we can say that Hellstorm is 200 million light years away from Earth. It could be a lot closer, could be a lot further. Hellstorm is never depicted to be in the same star system as Earth either way.
Pyron creates Huitzils using resources he collected from Hellstorm and sends them out across the universe to find planets he can later consume after finding Earth. Earth wasn’t Pyron’s only target. So, there's already a precedent for MFTL+ speeds. Even low balling Hellstorm's flight can still net us around billions c.
And do recall that Pyron's gravitational pull was so giant that he was constantly pulling in stars and other celestial bodies into his being. This alone would net MFTL speeds, and would favor Hellstorm being many lightyears away. Given he doesn’t at any point pull in our own sun throughout this time. To top it all off, Pyron is an A class Darkstalker, not an S class. Therefore, this applies to Morrigan-tier characters. S classes only belong to the Makai House rulers like Jedah.
Similar to just about every other fighting game in existence with good speed feats, they typically scale universally. While Jon is a B+ class, characters between classes fight all the time, and the ranking system is for power, not for speed. Even if Morrigan was toying with BB Hood in the manga, BB Hood even just reacting to her casual speed is impressive. Recall that she is canonically much weaker than everyone else, being a C class. She's technically still human. In the Graphic File, it states that Barbara Kreutz was a sparring rival to Dimitri before the latter was banished to Earth. Meaning Dimitri was still A Class around this time.
Jon's dad is a Royal Guard, not a direct descendant of the leader of the Kreutz house. Very likely he's also B+ class. Meaning Jon shouldn't be too far behind given similar heritage.
Even if Jon wasn't as fast as Huitzils or as fast as Morrigan, if he was literally 1% as fast, he blitzes even the ARIA feat.
The best comparison we can make: Think of the Huitzil robots like the JACK robots from Tekken. They are fodder enemies but their feats are crazy. Since most of everyone has an opportunity to destroy them with little issue, virtually everyone should scale in one way or the other.
But you gave the Huitzils and Pyron a 24-hour timeframe for 200 million light years...
I guess this is the folly of the blogs sometimes. That's how we labeled it, but in truth, we dabbled with a variety of timeframes for them flying across space. At the very lowest we got high millions c. Since this is basically Pyron's cruising speed and the Huitzils flight speed, it was comparable to the rest of the cast. Sorry if that genuinely confused anyone.
You have to remember that Pyron was meandering across the cosmos, not going as fast as he can. If he truly wanted to, his non corporeal form goes way faster. Given previous evidence, Relativistic - Baseline FTL isn't the best that Darkstalkers are capable of. Even if this was the case, Jon may be a bit slower, but he still has plenty of other advantages in his court.
Does Jon scale to any A Class Darkstalkers or above?
No. The classes in Darkstalkers are specifically established to gauge power, and obviously Jon and the other B+ classes aren’t going to be in the same tier as, say, Pyron in terms of attack potency.
Glacius’ Lake Freezing Feat
Yeeeaaah, we don’t know if anyone is still actually arguing this feat, but we figured it was worth bringing up. Despite it still being mentioned on several VS. Battles pages, it has been known to be bunk for a while. There’s literally nothing to imply Glacius froze the lake in question, or even that the entirety of it was frozen. Given the ‘feat’ occurs… Well, in the middle of an arctic region, and we don’t actually see when it gets frozen, it’s much more likely that the lake was just already frozen. It’s pretty much a meme by this point.
See also: The people who won’t stop claiming Raiden used his Kamidogu amp in the MKX comics to create a storm around the Sky Temple. Despite said temple literally always being in a perpetual storm.
The Storm on Chief Thunder’s stage
Thunder’s stage in KI has a storm going on, and interestingly enough, performing an Ultra combo on the stage increases the intensity of the storm. Because this is done via an Ultra Combo, some people attribute this storm to the power of the characters.
https://youtu.be/naO8xm7lZqI?t=50 (0:50)
There are a couple issues with this reasoning.
The storm itself is already present on the stage prior to the Ultra Combo being performed (technically before the fight even begins). As such, it’s a pretty big false attribution to claim the characters’ fighting is what is causing the storm.
The increase in the storm’s intensity is likely just a dramatic effect added for flair, rather than something being directly caused by any of the characters’ powers. Especially since the effect happens no matter which character performs the Ultra Combo. Despite Thunder and Gargos being the only KI characters with anything resembling weather manipulation.
Similar dramatic effects are used on other KI stages, such as the giant sea monster that emerges if an Ultra Combo is performed on Spinal’s stage.
https://youtu.be/naO8xm7lZqI?t=91 (1:31)
That aside, even if we were to measure and attribute the power of the storm (or change in the storm's intensity, I guess?) to the KI cast, the highest it would probably get is City level. Which the low-end and mid-end of Anakaris’ feat can match, and the high-end is significantly larger than. Add in Jon’s superior skill and speed, and you still have a pretty safe sweep for him.
Why was the meteor calc lower than what VS. Battles has?
https://youtu.be/S-0RZj5sPlA?t=46 (0:44)
The main difference comes from the presumed speed of the meteor in both calcs. The VS. Battles calc assumes the meteors are being pulled from deep space, and gets a way higher speed (and in turn more Kinetic Energy) from that. Also the VS. Battles calc, for some reason, only uses the mass of the smaller meteors, and not the giant one Tusk calls down at the end.
Anyway, it's never actually shown where the meteors come from, or how much distance they are covering before reaching the ground, so we stuck with the typical re-entry speed of a meteor (Mach 32).
Unless it's something like the meteors summoned by Fujitora from One Piece, where it's very clearly established and shown he's pulling them out from deep space, and that they are moving at a faster than normal speed, we generally stick to this method for the meteor’s speed. If you think there are grounds for the meteor feat being city level, cool. It should still be Town level bare minimum. But like we said, it's moot to this fight either way, since Jon can still match and surpass it.
Scaling Sabrewulf to KI top tiers
None of the arguments for the scaling, so far as we can tell, hold water. At least, they don’t hold water if we’re trying to scale Sabre to the KI reboot top tiers.
KI scaling chains do go pretty wild and Sabrewulf, and most of the KI cast for that matter, should all get the same general mid-tier scaling. However, it’s also very well-established that the only individuals who can stand up to Gargos are top tiers with their own Guardian Spirit like Jago, Kim, ETC. Sabre has fought Jago in the original Killer Instinct comics, but that’s a different continuity, and doesn’t really have much as far as impressive destruction or durability feats.
If we were to scale Sabrewulf to, say, reboot Jago off of just this, we could very easily do the same for Jon with Morrigan (who he briefly fights with in the Darkstalkers OVA opening and one of the mangas), Lilith (who he impales in the Darkstalkers 3 Lilith manga), or any of the other Darkstalkers who are A class and above. All of whom have feats, or would scale to feats, that are considerably higher than anything in Killer Instinct, including…
Pyron turning Earth into his personal jewelry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgqkkPfwOcY
Jedah coating the entire moon in blood.
http://chessmoba.us/team/MTMwMS4w?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic
Jedah absorbing the souls of the Makai, and eradicating Makai.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8krMqaduus
And so on...
*Insert Darkstalkers media* shouldn’t have been used or considered
*Shrugs* we composited Sabrewulf’s original, reboot, and comic counterparts. It doesn’t seem that crazy to give Jon similar treatment. Like we said, Jon technically doesn’t even need any of the spinoff material to win. All he needs is scaling to Huitzil’s interstellar travel feat (from the games), and Anakaris’ kingdom sinking feat (also from the games). Do also note that when it comes to Darkstalkers spinoff media: They are all adaptations of the games. At least the ones we included.
OVA - Darkstalkers 1&2
UDON - Darkstalkers 1&2
Lilith Manga - Darkstalkers 3
The personalities, backstories, and character setups in each of them are no different from their appearances in the game. The only differences are minute such as who Donovan and Anita meet up with, or if Jon is super dark and brooding (admittedly, that Huitzil fight was weird though).
From what we know, Capcom never came out and said, "This is straight up not canon and should never be looked at." Still falls under compositing rules. And really, the other media serves for backstory and supplementary evidence. We think people made this argument because they weren't super comfortable with B+ Darkstalkers being stronger than Town level - Massively Hypersonic. But it’s not really up to us to scale characters if it seems right. If there’s evidence to them being stronger, we’ll examine it.
Different mediums is not enough reason alone to discount research. The best example to give is that Dragon Ball characters would be way weaker with way fewer hax without its different mediums.
None of it is so contradictory that we would exclude it, while not doing the same for Sabrewulf. Which, arguably, we could just as easily do. Had we just applied an arbitrary "no composite" rule for this fight, Sabrewulf loses a lot of good scaling and some feats, including but not limited to:
- ARIA's Nanosecond Feat (Novel)
- Glacius blitzing her (comics)
- At least one meteor feat (either Eyedol's or Tusk's, can't have both)
- Cinder's Flight Speed (original KI)
- Chief Thunder's Stage Storm (assuming they actually create it; reboot KI)
- A series of miscellaneous skills and attacks
- Note that original KI is not canon to the reboot KI, we'd have to prioritize one over another, which honestly doesn't sound right to do.
It makes no sense for us to just say "direct feats only" when both Sabrewulf and Jon's best direct feats without scaling or fighting other characters (no gameplay feats either) are… Breaking steel. Generally speaking, if there are better win conditions for a character that boils down to including spinoff media, then unless it's explicitly contradictory or non-canon, we will probably at least consider it.
Would Jon be able to defeat Gargos or Jago?
Probably not. Scaling to Huitzil would make him considerably faster. But Gargos’ portal/cloud dispersion feat is a lot higher than anything Jon scales to. To the point that a single solid hit from Gargos or Jago would fodderize Jon. Gargos, Jago, and any KI top tiers could likely outlast and defeat Jon or any Darkstalker below A class, barring haxes. Though this is irrelevant to the fight since Sabrewulf doesn’t scale to them.
Why even bother bringing up fighting styles, ki, and werewolf control if he stat stomps?
Most importantly, do remember that at the end of the day, these episodes aren't made for the VS Community exclusively. In a close fight, these are the very things that will decide a match. Remember that calculations aren't always the be all end all. Tons of TNT don't mean much to those who aren't invested in the community like that. It's what makes fights like these fun to discuss.
If we find both characters, theoretically, to be at City level, unless the disparity in stats is clear, we have to account for everything. Not just 4 > 2.
I thought Jedah said BB Hood was an S Class... I don't know...
She's an S-Class Hunter, totally different (but I don't blame anyone for being confused). They are basically ranked on how well they kill Darkstalkers. Donovan and Hsien-Ko are all S-Class Hunters. When scaling them, we just attribute them to the characters they fight, same as any other fighting game.
BB Hood is pure human though, so she's exceptionally a C Classer. Donovan is the equivalent of an A class (fighting Dimitri and Pyron). Hsien-Ko is the equivalent of a B+ Demon. Jedah says she's as strong as a Darkstalker, but I guess that's a topic maybe for another day.
In Summary…
Jon is not as strong as an A class Darkstalker. You could make arguments that he is, but you’d have to ignore the Darkstalkers Graphic File, and his own showings in the series would still make the claim hard to prove.
Sabrewulf does not scale to reboot Gargos, or a series of bunk KI feats. He sits at a mid end where scaling to the Tusk meteors is fine. There's also ARIA to take into consideration since he killed Glacius in one of his KI2 endings, and is comparable to characters who kept up with Glacius in the reboot.
However, giving both equal treatment in the media we allow, Jon comes out on top no matter what you use. People were hung up if we would include XY, or Z for Jon, but Darkstalkers’ best mid-tier feats do not come from the OVA, UDON, Light Novel, or manga. They come from the games themselves. The Darkstalkers Graphic File is an official release detailing the lore, concepts, and feats of the games. We were lucky enough to have a physical copy to make scans of.
If you're wondering why we didn't go into stat heavy TNT values in the episode, let's paint a clear picture…
No Scaling / Direct Feats. I.E, 'Wut' Tier
Jon - Tears Steel / Bullet and FTE Timing (FTL through Japanese statements)
Sabrewulf - Tears Steel / No Notable Speed Feats
Scaling to their appropriate tier. I.E, what we used.
Jon - Small City to Island Level (Anakaris) / MFTL (Huitzils)
Sabrewulf - Town to City Level (Tusk) / FTL (ARIA)
Scaling to their absolute highest in their series. I.E, ‘LOL Tier’
Jon - Star to Galaxy Level (Morrigan and Jedah) / MFTL+
Sabrewulf - Large Planet Level (Gargos) / FTL+
All this plus Jon's numerous miscellaneous advantages in skill, ki, and control over his werewolf side. You don't need the specific numbers to tell you Jon had the advantage there.
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