Saturday, June 13, 2020

Prediction blog: Gwenpool vs Haruko


Background


Gwenpool

A NEET who traveled from the “real world” into the marvel comics universe. Due to her knowledge of comic topes, she figured playing the part of a hero would give the authors an incentive to keep her alive, and quickly went on to establish herself as a mercenary. Ironically due to her real name literally being Gwendolyn Poole, she was mistaken as being a Deadpool knockoff and was given a costume in the same vein as the actual Deadpool by her seamstress.

Her stint as a merc had …..mixed results to say the least. Despite essentially being a D list character Gwen overestimated her importance in the marvel universe and consistently got blindsided by various forms of misfortune. Including being blackmailed into working for Modok, losing her team's main base, and actively making her favorite heroes hate her due to her “nothing is real attitude. She eventually grew past this however after meeting a future evil version of herself and deciding to correct her behavior though.

Haruko

Haruko Haruhara is an energetic and spontaneous 19 year old alien girl whose made it her personal mission throughout most of the series to chase down and absorb Atomsk, a powerful space pirate king. Aside from that, little is known about Haruko.

Armor

Gwenpool

Thor plushie
A giant Thor plushie that can be used to block physical and projectile attacks.
Shield generator
An energy shield generator. It can block attacks from beings as strong as MODOK.

Weapons

Gwenpool

Knives
Smaller knives that can be used for slashing attacks. They can also be thrown from a distance.

Twin katanas
Two twin katanas Gwen can use for slashing attacks. In some games she can throw them like boomerangs.

Hammer
A giant heart-shaped hammer Gwen can use to smash opponents.

Maces
A giant medieval mace.

Broadsword
A large broadsword Gwen can use for slashing attacks.

IMI Galil SAR 5.56
An isrelia automatic rifle.

IMI Uzis
A blowback open sub-machine guns.

FN SPR
A bolt action sniper rifle.

M16
An m16 semi-automatic firearm weapon.

M1911 Pistols
Pistol guns Gwen can use to hit faraway targets. She occasionally duel wields them.
AK-107
An assault rifle
M4 Carbine
A variant of the classic m16 assault rifle

Foam gun
A gun that shoots quick expanding foam that solidifies and traps opponents.

Gatling guns
A powerful rapid-firing Gatling gun.

Bow and arrow
A bow and arrow. Gwen has never shown to use it in battle, but it is shown on her personal wall.

Present bombs
Large bombs in the shape of boxed presents. They go off after a few seconds of being set.

Normal Bombs/grenades
Bombs of various types. Some are circular, while others are more akin to grenades. Gwen has also made homemade bombs before.

Sticky bombs
Sticky bombs that can attack to solid surfaces before exploding a few seconds later.

Bazooka
Various bazookas Gwen can use to explode opponents from a distance. Some are shaped like penguins.

Rpg-7
A portable shoulder anti-tank missile.

Magic rocket launcher
A rocket launcher made by amato. It’s apparently powerful enough to take down entities like Dormanu.

Haruko

Rickenbacker
Haruko's signature weapon is a bass guitar. Not only is she capable of using this as a melee weapon, but it can also shoot missiles/shotgun rounds.
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (13:04) - Haruko firing bullets from Rickenbacker

1967 Model Mustang
Haruko's bass guitar used in FLCL Progressive and Alternative. The 1967 Model Mustang has nearly the same abilities as the Rickenbacker, but can fire lasers instead of bullets.
  • Alternative Ep. 2 (16:40) - Haruko firing lasers from her 1967 Model Mustang

Ukulele Gun 
A ukulele disguised as a machine gun. Used in Chapter 7 of the FLCL manga.

Uzi Submachine Gun
A submachine gun used by Haruko. Uzi Submachine Guns have a rate of fire of  600 rounds/minute and have a muzzle velocity of around 895 mph.
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (1:00) - Haruko using an Uzi Sabmachine Gun

Slingshot
A slingshot used by Haruko. With it, Haruko can fire small explosive red energy spheres capable of staggering skyscraper sized robots.
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (16:20) - Haruko using a slingshot

Spring-Loaded Boxing Glove
A spring-loaded boxing glove that comes from Haruko's...let's move on.
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (3:45) - Haruko's spring-loaded boxing glove

Equipment

Gwenpool

Backpacks
Various backpacks that can hold Gwen's tools and equipment. She normally has penguin and shark variants.

Web-Shooters
Web shooters picked up from the spider gang characters. Shoots a powerful adhesive webbing that can be used to swing from objects or tie-up opponents.
Smoke bombs
Bombs that create a cloaking layer of smoke in the area. It can be used for sneaking around.
misc
Had a parasol in lego marvel https://youtu.be/K94AowFVr-I?t=96

Haruko

Vespa SS180
A modified Vespa scooter that serves as Haruko's main source of transportation. The Vespa is capable of flight and can be summoned by Haruko with a whistle. Haruko has stated that her Vespa is light speed, which is likely true given that she uses it to chase down Atomsk through the universe.
  • FLCL Ep. 3 (17:43) - Haruko summons the Vespa with a whistle
  • FLCL Ep. 6 (26:40) - Haruko flying with her Vespa
  • FLCL Manga Ch. 15 (Pg. 47) - Haruko stating her Vespa is light speed

Abilities

Gwenpool

4th wall knowledge
As a resident of the “real world” Gwen has knowledge of comic books from an outsider's perspective, including the identities of marvel characters, various marvel plotlines, and comic tropes. She can use this to her advantage in her own stories, though her knowledge is mostly limited to anything when she entered. WOG of god also states she has read DC and indie titles and she has referenced DC a few times confirming this. Though how much knowledge she has outside Marvel isn't clear.

Supernatural luck
Gwen has an in-universe acknowledged ability to essentially steer the “plot” of her encounters in her favor, oftentimes getting out of dangerous situations through sheer luck or coincidence. This includes for example just happening to be arrested by dirty cops who will ignore protocol and let her go. Shooting a flock of birds without looking, and making them coincidently fall onto a car chasing her. As well as passively altering the coordination of her opponents to make it impossible to hit her even if they have superhuman skills and a clear shot.

Sfx interaction
Gwen can interact with and see captions or letting in her comic. 
Interacting with panel borders
As Gwen is aware of her nature as a comic book character she can interact with panel borders.

Voicebox reading/mind-reading
Gwen is capable of seeing voices and thoughts in the form of comic boxes or panels. This includes her own, in addition to others. Once she was also able to “see” a flashback miles was having, allowing her to essentially read his memories.
Teleportation via memory or thought
Gwen can teleport across time and space via thought, imagining herself at different locations. Though worth noting only her future selves seemed to have fully mastered the ability, with her normal self having difficulty with it.
Size shifting
A size altering ability. Gwenpool can turn into a giant, or return to normal size via imagining herself at such sizes on the comic page. Future Gwen seemed to have better control over this compared to her younger self.

Paper memory
A sort of summoning ability. Essentially Gwen can knock a character out while summoning a past version of said character. These versions seem to have the powers of the originals, but also seem weaker durability wise. They also have the personality of the original, so they may not work with her.
Comic alteration
Gwen can alter and write in certain segments of her own comic. Particularly the “asks” pages.
Sound control

Gwen has the ability to grab and control “sound effects” essentially silencing a room if she chooses.

Telekinesis
Gwen apparently can move objects with her mind, though so far the objects moved seem to be fairly small.

Time stop exposition
Gwen can seemingly stop time for short periods of time, to perform exposition.

Time compaction
Gwen apparently compact space/time due to knowing her nature as a comic-book character. Essentially she can skip forward/speed up the flow of time to get to future events.

Memory alteration resistance
Gwen has resistance to mental manipulation. Entering gutter space restored her memories when Terrible eye erased them, replaced them and placed her in a pocket universe. She also resisted having her memories altered when Santa used his magic the alter reality in her Christmas special. When time travel events occur her future self and present self are also aware of her past being retconned.

Via gutter space

Her future self sensing her past changing

Natural

Gutter space
An extra-dimensional space outside the forces of time and space Gwen can access due to her perception of reality as a comic. It can serve as a place to go for a quick getaway and acts as a medium from which Gwen can interact with the marvel universe. Gwen initially enters gutter space by tearing a hole in reality with her 4th wall powers. It is not considered to be a magical dimension.

Clairvoyance: Gwen can use gutter space to view events in her stories “script” that she herself was not present for. This can allow her to learn information about other characters and situations she otherwise would not be able to.

Grabbing/moving objects: Gwen can steal objects or items from various points of space/time from the safety of gutter space. She can also throw objects into gutter space and have them appear in separate locations of space/time.

Dimensional escape: Gutter space can be used as a means to escape pocket realities.
Travel/dodging: Gutter space can, of course, be used to travel to other places in space/time, including those from the past, present, and future. From an outsider's perspective, Gwen essentially disappears or losses limbs temporarily when doing so. 
BFR: Gwenpool can remove people from reality itself taking them into gutter space and dropping them into the void there.

Acausality: Because of how Gwen’s medium interaction works, particularly within the confines of gutter space, she does not need to follow normal rules of causality. For example, she can receive objects she gets in the “future” of her timeline during a flashforward in her story, and still retain it in the present when the flashforward ends.
Time travel: Using gutter space Gwen can travel to different points in time in the future and the past.
Going back in time to avoid a trap 
Time duplicates: Two versions of Gwen can exist simultaneously at the same time, via time travel from thought or gutter space. This generally involves present Gwen along with her evil or good future self. 

Summoning people: Gwen can draw other 4th wall breakers on pages while in gutter space to summon them or send them to other locations 

Summoning objects: Gwen can also draw objects on pieces of paper while in gutter space to summon them. 

 Misc:

Reality alteration
In the series, Gwenpool strikes back Gwen learned how to take her 4th wall altering powers to another level. By imagining story threads via flashback she can essentially insert new events into history or even retcon events that have already happened. She can also use this ability to create objects out of thin air.

Creating new events via flashback

Retcon
misc powers

Haruko

4th Wall Breaking/Toon Force
Throughout the series, Haruko has shown the ability to break the laws of physics with some light reality warping. She can pause the anime to comment on events, stretch her limbs and body, and can even turn the anime itself into a manga panel.
  • FLCL Ep. 1 (5:14) - Pauses the anime to comment on a slow motion shot
  • FLCL Ep. 2 (16:45) - Stretches her eyes
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (4:03) - Stretches her body
  • FLCL Ep. 6 (7:34) - Turns the anime into a manga

Flight
 Haruko has shown the ability to fly without her Vespa.
  • Progressive Ep. 5 (20:28) - Haruko flying on her guitar

Atomsk's Power
During the events of FLCL Progressive, Haruko was able to absorb the power of Atomsk himself. While absorbing Atomsk' true power proved to be too much for her to handle, Haruko was able to tap into a portion of his power during her fight with Jinyu. The portion of his power tapped into while fighting Jinyu was likely residual energy left in her body after trying to absorb Atomsk the first time. 
  • Progressive Ep. 4 (14:54) - Taps into Atomsk's power
  • Progressive Ep. 4 (20:27) - Devours and reabsorbs Jinyu into her body

Feats


 Gwenpool

Strength

Endurance


Speed

Haruko

Strength
  • FLCL Ep. 1 (9:25) - Destroys an X-Ray machine
  • FLCL Ep. 1 (9:40) - Cartoonishly makes a hospital twist and jump into the air
  • FLCL Ep. 1 (20:30) - Bashes her guitar bass through metal
  • FLCL Ep. 4 (0:00) - Hits a baseball out of the atmosphere
  • FLCL Ep. 4 (20:35) - Hits a giant baseball bomb into space and damages the surrounding area
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (16:20) - Staggers a skyscraper-sized robot with a slingshot

Speed
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (6:22) - Deflects a sniper bullet
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (11:40) - Dodges and deflects gunfire at close range
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (13:00) - Dodges bullets in slow motion
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (17:15) - Dodges building-sized bullets
  • FLCL Ep. 6 (30:36) - Flies out of the solar system
  • Progressive Ep. 2 (17:37) - Blocks lasers
  • Progressive Ep. 5 (7:55) - Moves FTE
  • Alternative Ep. 2 (19:00) - Spins fast enough to create a vortex
  • Is capable of driving her lightspeed Vespa

Durability
  • Consistently endures point blank explosions
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (17:20) - Gets shot by multiple building-sized bullets
  • FLCL Ep. 5 (18:18) - Gets shot by five building-sized bullets at once
  • FLCL Ep. 6 (24:10) - Takes hits from an Atomsk-empowered Naoto
  • Progressive Ep. 2 (19:30) - Survives an explosion that creates a massive crater

Scaling

Gwenpool

Miles
Gwen’s future self is shown to be capable of putting up a fight against Miles morales. Even being able to kill him without to much effort.
He can


misc
Spider-man villains have survived nuke like explosions https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Amazing-Spider-Man-1963/Issue-131?id=4362&readType=0#19
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Amazing-Spider-Man-1963/Issue-157?id=4388#10
There are also some potential rela feats in sonic

Haruko


  • FLCL Ep. 6 (5:28) - Atomsk is stated to be capable of stealing star systems. While Haruko does not fully scale to Atomsk, she is capable of tapping into a portion of his power
  • FLCL Manga Ch. 15 (Pg. 19 - 20) - Canta jumps to space in seconds
  • FLCL Novel (Pg. 114) - Naoto hits a meteor at warp speed two

Accomplishments

Gwenpool

  • Was taught basic combat skills and firearms shooting by Batroc the leaper
  • https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Unbelievable-Gwenpool/Issue-3?id=66285#10 https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Unbelievable-Gwenpool/Issue-4?id=74561#4
  • Her evil future self successfully orchestrated civil war 3, and is implied to become a large enough threat that very few marvel heroes could stop her.
  • Somehow defeated Dormunu and Mephisto. Though in the former she was given a weapon to counter him and in latter she had squirrel girl assisting.
  • A member of the west coast avengers

Haruko

  • Chased Atomsk across the galaxy
  • Defeated an army of gun wielding goons with her guitar
  • Along with Canti, fought a skyscraper sized robot
  • Defeated and absorbed her other half, Jinyu
  • Would eventually catch up to Atomsk and absorb his powers 

Weaknesses

Gwenpool

Many of Gwen powers are subject to the out of universal editor mandates and needs of the comic writers themselves. For example while Gwen has literal plot armor, within the context of the marvel universe said plot armor and luck can fail against more popular characters because the marvel fanbase as a whole has more incentive to win a confrontation.
Her actions against other characters in her universe can also be undone or retconned should the author not allow it via mandates. For example, evil Gwenpool was capable of killing miles morales but said action was retconned into not happening shortly after. She also threw a minor villain out of reality but said villian was retconned back into the comic-book world without any memory of it shortly after.


Time travel to the future is also much more difficult than time traveling to the past. As Gwen’s and everyone else's future events are always in flux, and thus constantly changing. Her future events “options” can also be locked into unfavorable scenarios if she can’t reasonably get out of her predicament in the present.

She also can’t use gutter space to move to places(or for that matter probably teleport) to locations that the author has never shown, or that she herself hasn’t actually seen.
Gutter space also isn’t an end-all safe space. IT IS possible for others to enter it or leave it outside of Gwen’s control, though the only ones to do so have had specifically had prior knowledge on how to travel to extradimensional spaces, like Dr.Doom
Finally, her powers can seemingly be nerfed at the discretion of the authors themselves. Particularly if placed into the confines of a team-up story or crossover, her powers may be temporarily negated so she can’t break the plot as easily.

Verdicts

Ultraguy
This is a pretty strange matchup.

Being blunt I think there's a pretty large stat division between Haruko and Gwenpool. Haruko quite frankly blows her out of the water by several orders of magnitude, being a character that's probably island level and "some" order of MFTL at minimum. Gwenpool is probably rocking Rela-FTL and Town based on her future self killing a version of miles morales.

Now being fair there are some higher-end stat arguments you could make for Gwen
- She technically beat Mephisto, albeit a lot of it was off-screen and with Squirrel girls help(though granted Gwen gave the final blow).
-She put up a decent fight against MODOCK, who I'm sure is more of a middle diddler in Marvel
- She technically fought hulk and won in strikes back. Even taking some hits from him.
-Her future self killed a future version of her friend Sarah, who was a sorcerer supreme at the time. In order to get that title, you need to be either the most skilled or have the rawest magic in a dimension.
-She technically knocked out Dr.Doom when she struck him and created a paper copy of his classic incarnation.

That said I generally don't put much stock into a lot of these. Gwenpool herself is intended to basically be a normal girl and "peak human" by comicbook standards. Granted it's hard to tell at times since she's so new, but I kind of chock up a lot of those victories to circumstances or because "lol comics"(I'm sure most comic characters have fought out of their weight class at some point).

I think the issue for Haruko in this fight is Gwenpool ultimately has a lot of hax that's really hard to circumvent when marvel's mandates and PIS aren't holding her back. Haruko's massive speed advantage kind of starts to become less relevant when fighting a character that just doesn't really follow normal rules of causality. There isn't much stopping Gwen from using time travel to pretty much circumvent any attack before it happens(like the Harry potter saving himself from death eaters in a closed time loop with a time turner). Likewise, once she enters gutter space she pretty much has infinite time to come up with a plan. I'm also not super convinced Haruko could enter gutter space herself since it's established to be an extra-dimensional space most can't enter unless Gwen brings them there. Gwen can also pretty much just take stuff from Haruko from the safety of it. Like the guitars, the vespa, ect. She can just remove it from the battlefield from gutter space and through it into the void.

Haruko also really doesn't have an answer to the reality-warping abilities Gwen gained in strikes back. Being totally realistic here Gwen can just insert new events in history or ret-con events that already happened, just by thinking of a scenario. That's a pretty broken power, and while I don't put full stock in her comparing herself to scarlet witch, she should logically be capable of doing almost anything with that level of control. Even just based on what we've seen her do on screen, there's nothing stopping Gwen from thinking say "If you come within 10 feet of me you'll be teleported into a room with a nullifier that will suppress all your powers" or something. She did similar things to characters that are def stronger than Haruko her like Thor and Dr.Strange. Or heck "I actually set up an entire trap for you a week ago" is another option.

and finally, I think putting Gwen down might be an issue as well. Not only do you have her passive fate hax luck potentially causing the aim and fighting ability of otherwise competent heroes to fail. But it was shown in strikes back that if you get a group of Gwen's together from a single timeline and one of them dies, it doesn't actually affect the others(ironic considering the plot of evil Gwen but whatever). This kind of creates a buffer, because killing one Gwenpool from a specific point of time, may not stop other Gwen's from different time periods from acting on their own accord. This gets even more complicated when you realize every single Gwen has the same power set, some may go to gutter space where they can't be reached, ect.

Anyway outside of that, there's not to many important factors. I don't think Most of Gwen's arsenal really matters in this fight. Things like the guns, bombs, ect aren't really gonna hurt Haruko. I do think the fact she can pretty much grab any object from her history or potentially marvel, does help her bolster her arsenal enough to let her put Haruko down though. Off the top of my head, she could probably grab Cap's shield, some web-shooters, thors hammer, the magic rocket launcher, and potentially silver surfers board(she did technically ride it once in is 25). That should probably be enough to put Haruko down. Likewise despite Haruko's speed and mobility, given Gwen's reality-warping ability, she should really be able to just create a scenario to entrap Haruko somehow with a thought.

Gwen has a pretty heavy resistance to having her mind altered. So the hypnosis powers Haruko has shouldn't be a big deal. Most of Gwen's other 4th wall abilities like the mind-reading, interacting with boxes, growing in size, ect are pretty circumstantial here.

The only real loose end here is the fact Gwen's powers where initially built around a comic medium. Along with the fact the FLCL characters kind of switch mediums at times(generally between manga and anime).

This kind of what I like to call a "Kirto" problem. Kirito's powers and abilities are built around the mechanics of the virtual reality games he plays in. He himself does not really have powers. So when you have him in a vs setting against another character who isn't a virtual avatar how do you reconcile that?

The question with Gwen is if her powers where kind of built around the comic medium, what happens if you take her out of that. Being honest I don't really have an answer. Gwenpool has not really appeared in any media outside of comics after she first gained her 4th wall abilities. It really has not been addressed how they would be adapted, though that being said it's never been stated or shown that she would lose them. The closest I've seen is the Marvel Deul game beta, which seems to show Gwen still opening a portal in space like her comic counterpart.

https://youtu.be/OeMadGRhVJQ?t=720

I generally think under most circumstances we would assume the fight happens on an even playing ground where both can use their abilities to their normal capacity. Similar to how Zits or a lot of persona characters wouldn't just be normal teens without powers during a vs fight. In laymans terms if you don't let a character use the powers they're known for, then what's the point of having them fight in the first place?

It's also worth noting that while Gwen sees her world from the perspective of a comic, other characters have confirmed multiple times from "their perspective" she's just teleporting or making things appear from thin air or whatever. Haruko switching the world to a manga medium also wouldn't be a factor if we wanna get meta since manga is basically just American comics in black in white. Even anime isn't completely devoid of comic/manga aesthetic tropes based on the animation style used in question(spider-verse for example).


But even taking everything at face value. If Gwen can ret-con events in history just by thinking about it. She should just be able to ret-con Haruko changing a fights medium into not happening.


ok that was a lot

Anyway TLDR. Gwen is probably stat stomped, but she does have the tools to put Haruko down. Haruko doesn't really have any answers for gutter space, the time clones, and reality-warping, which are such potent haxes that everything else is pretty irrelevant. I also think the fact Gwen has a surprisingly large resume of beating mid-tier, herald and cosmic level comic characters despite her short life span, lending credence to the idea she could pull a win off.


Strunton
I’ll try to make this as short as I can. In terms of strength, speed, and durability, I don’t think anyone will deny that Haruko is leagues more powerful than Gwenpool, especially if we were to take Atomsk’s powers into account. But with that said, stats alone are probably not enough to take Gwenpool down in a head on fight.

Haruko may have technically displayed better speed feats than Gwenpool, but not only can Gwen’s supernatural luck passively alter Haruko’s coordination to make it impossible to hit her, but Gwen is technically unbound by linear time, and other time duplicates of her can step in to pull her into a higher plane of existence beyond Haruko’s reach to save her (Gutterspace). And while Haruko has technically shown to be capable of stopping time by pausing the anime itself, Gwen has shown to be capable of stopping, rewinding, and fastforwarding time. There’s also technically nothing stopping Gwen from just outright retconning every action Haruko takes GER style or, worse case scenario, inserting panels that can make it so Haruko dies through other means before encountering Gwenpool to begin with. While one could debate on whether or not Haruko changing the medium would impact how Gwenpool can utilize her abilities, given her ability to look into the future via the script, it’s possible that Gwen can retcon this ability and can make it so Haruko never had this ability to begin with. Last but not least, Haruko has no way of reaching Gwenpool once she’s in Gutterspace, meaning Gwenpool can basically do whatever she wants from that point on.
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4 comments:

  1. UnknownOctober 22, 2020 at 12:19 PM

    Make this real

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