Scarlet Witch Vs Zatanna Q and A

  "The following is the opinion of only those involved in its writing. It is not officially endorsed by Rooster Teeth Productions or necessarily representative of the views of the Death Battle staff at large."

Didn’t Wanda only go insane due to the circumstances surrounding House of M? The Life Force shouldn’t drive her insane normally.

While it’s true that she was already unstable at the time due to learning the truth about her children, the Life Force very much does drive someone insane regardless. The Marvel Encyclopedia states that the act of channeling its power is what drove her mad, and Doctor Doom was also unable to channel the Life Force without it overtaking his mind, despite being one of the most powerful minds in the world, and entirely sane beforehand (or, well, as sane as Doom is normally). There is no reason to believe that Wanda could channel the Life Force for an extended period of time without being driven insane again.

Wasn’t the Life Force retconned? It should just be Wanda’s own power that caused House of M and M-Day.

Nah. The “retcons” that people are referring to with this argument are just instances where M-Day is referred to as Wanda “misusing her power” or “unleashing the full force of her Chaos Magic” and other things along those lines, which is likely just referring to Wanda misusing the power afforded to her by the Life Force and unleashing the full force of her amped Chaos Magic at the time. She was still using Chaos Magic to do it, just far beyond her normal level, so none of these statements actually retcon anything.

The Marvel Encyclopedia reinforces the idea that she was channeling “too much power” during House of M, and she states in Uncanny Avengers that she would require a massive power source in order to replicate her No More Mutants spell, which is obviously a reference to the Life Force. Even if you insist that the Life Force doesn’t exist or isn’t required, and that she was just tapping into “more” Chaos Magic than normal, then that still wouldn’t change anything. She would still need to tap into that additional power to replicate her House of M feats, and that excess power would still threaten her sanity as per the Encyclopedia’s explanation.

All this being said, here’s a comic from September 2021 where she directly references the Life Force by name, and the comic refers back to the events of Children’s Crusade. It 100% has NOT been retconned.

Isn’t Wanda’s probability manipulation much more advanced than Zatanna’s? Wouldn’t that be a huge advantage? Probability manipulation is super broken.

Sort of? If we’re talking specifically about probability manipulation, Wanda’s showings of it are more extensive compared to Zatanna’s (though Zatanna has shown to be capable of the ability), which is something we discussed a bit when deciding the verdict. That being said, looking at things holistically, it doesn’t give Wanda any advantages over Zatanna that Zee wouldn’t be able to match with her own magic.

The way that Wanda’s Chaos Magic works is that she essentially manipulates probability and reality to do whatever she wants. By increasing or decreasing the probability of something happening, she can either ensure the thing in question happens with absolute certainty, or turn it into an impossibility. Hence the general summary in the episode being “she can do whatever she wants”.

At first glance, that might seem like a huge advantage. Wanda could just increase the probability of Zatanna dying or something to 100% and win instantly, right? Maybe! As noted, both could easily win if they play their cards right. But here’s the thing: that isn’t inherently more effective than Zatanna achieving the exact same thing with her magic by imposing her will onto reality. Anything Wanda could hypothetically do with probability manipulation, Zatanna could hypothetically do as well with her own powers. And both can undo or otherwise counter magic, reality warping, etc. with their powers, making it entirely feasible for Zatanna to just… stop any probability alterations that Wanda attempts (and vice versa). Hence the general summary in the episode for Zatanna being… “she can do whatever she wants”, same as Wanda.

Neither character was going to win the fight off of abilities alone when both can realistically do or counter pretty much anything that the other can.

What about the Chaos Wave? Why wasn’t that discussed more?

The Chaos Wave is a wave of energy that was caused by Wanda’s power going out of control during House of M, which was stated to be capable of reducing all of creation to an amorphous conceptual blob, including higher planes of existence such as Otherworld (1, 2, 3, 4). People have argued this as an outerversal feat of power for Wanda and an ability that she would be capable of using during a fight. 

To clarify, what she specifically did was punch a hole through the “walls of causality” which in turn released a wave of energy that would have eventually destroyed all of creation if left unchecked. Despite not being addressed verbally in the episode, this was acknowledged in Wanda’s feats slate, and I think it works fine as additional support for Life Force Wanda being able to affect Marvel’s entire cosmology.

However, similar to punching a hole through a dam and allowing the water to gush out, it’s not really clear if the power of the wave can be scaled to Wanda or if she has any actual control over the wave. In the story, she wasn’t ever even aware of the fact that the wave was happening, and as far as I know she is still not aware to this day that it happened. As such, it’s extremely unlikely that she has the capability or knowledge needed to “weaponize” such a phenomenon.

Though even if she could, it wouldn’t change the verdict. Consuming all of creation is exactly the same thing that Pralaya did (to a similarly vast cosmology), except Pralaya’s feat was immediate rather than over time, and as the episode noted, Zatanna has shown to be capable of repelling that sort of power. The Chaos Wave would also be an AoE attack, the full power of which would not be concentrated on any singular human-sized target, which would only make it easier for Zatanna to defend against. And of course, Wanda could only hypothetically cause such a thing while tapping into the Life Force, so the point about her sanity would still apply in such a circumstance.

Couldn’t Wanda scale to the House of Ideas?

Not really. The House of Ideas is a location introduced in the comic series Avengers No Road Home. It’s essentially the core of Marvel’s entire cosmology, the birthplace of all that is, and the place where The One Above All lives. In No Road Home Issue #9, while trying to enter the House of Ideas, Wanda casts a spell to protect her allies from the passive energy emitted by it. This is sometimes used as an argument to scale Wanda to super duper beyond outerversal tier in base.

Issue 1: How much of the House’s power is Wanda even protecting them from? The energy emitted by the House is holding them back and preventing them from advancing, but this is described as a “cloaking enchantment” simply designed to resist their presence, not attack them. There is also a statement that all of creation is “holding fast against them”, in other words a barrier preventing them from advancing. Nothing saying that the full power of The One Above All is being exerted onto the heroes here, and such an assumption seems pretty absurd. All of the Avengers present (including characters like Hawkeye and Rocket Raccoon) withstand it pushing against them temporarily, before Wanda protects them. Ultimately, the only one able to enter the House successfully is Vision, whom it’s implied The One Above All allowed to enter.

Issue 2: It’s stated or indicated more than once that Wanda’s power is greatly inferior to the House. Her defensive spell protects them, but explicitly cannot help them advance. And later on, Wanda says that she’s never felt such power in all her years. Not from the Life Force, not from Chthon, and most definitely not from herself. It is explicitly beyond not only her, but beyond every amp she’s ever had, and every foe she’s ever faced.

Bonus: There was a scrapped idea for Wanda to be the only mortal with a connection to the House. There was also a Twitter statement from one of the writers, which essentially says that this connection could have been the reason for her absurd power. Just one problem: it was scrapped. It never actually happened in the story, and the same writer said in no uncertain terms that it is not canon unless it actually happens in the future. He also doubled down on that recently. Simply having a connection to the House would also not guarantee any specific level of power, since there would be no way to quantify the extent of that connection (beyond looking at her actual feats, obviously).

Can’t Wanda resurrect herself after death? She did so in X-Men: Trial of Magneto.

She did not resurrect herself, at least not entirely. Hope and Magneto resurrected her via Krakoa’s resurrection protocols, and brought her back with a number of her memories missing, since her memory backups were outdated. She needed time and outside help to return. 

She does say that she could find her own way back, but this is pretty unclear about how she would do it or how long it would take her. It’s probably possible that she could find her way back to life over an unknown period of time, and then just time travel back to when she died to resume the fight immediately, but this still wouldn’t give her a winning edge over Zatanna, and it’s pretty feasible that Zatanna could just stop her from doing this with her abilities. This was noted in a tab in the episode.

What about Wanda absorbing Chthon and the Darkhold?

At the moment, we don’t know yet whether Wanda can harness Chthon’s power entirely, how much of an amp it is, or whether it will be permanent. Too recent and currently too unclear to change anything.

Didn’t Zatanna have a temporary amp when she was holding back Pralaya?

It is true that Zatanna’s time in the World Tree/The Place Where Magic Was New gave her an amp. She states herself it increased her power 1000 fold. However, because the power increase would fade the further she got away from the World Tree, she used up all of it trying to repair ruptures in reality.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-League-Dark/Issue-38?id=3392#22 

"But the farther I get from the World Tree, the more that fire will fade... So why not use it all here and now: Destroy the Gremlins, seal the ruptures."

Zatanna holds back Pralaya after this point, when she no longer has the amp.

Wasn’t Zatanna only able to hold back Pralaya with John’s help?

It’s a bit confusing, but as the episode tab explains, the barrier that held back Pralaya was made by mirages or ‘constructs’ of Zatanna and John Constantine that the ‘real’ Zatanna made using what remained of her essence.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-League-Dark/Issue-40?id=3395#3 

"Of course I'm not Constantine. Not really. I'm just a memory of him - a magical reflection created by Zatanna."

The ‘real’ John Constantine didn’t play any part in the barriers' creation. It was exclusively Zatanna’s power that did it. But don’t take our word for it, the mirages of John and Zee outright state they contain 'everything she is'.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-League-Dark/Issue-40?id=3395#8 

"Zatanna created you out of her essence. You... We contain everything that she is."

Ergo, anything they do, Zatanna can do with her own magic.

Can you really scale Zatanna to Pralaya if the barrier could only hold her back temporarily?

*Shrugs* It held Pralaya back after she had consumed literally everything else in DC, and did so long enough for the mirages of Zatanna and John to craft a plan, revive Swamp Thing, and turn the tables. At minimum, it had to have lasted for a few minutes, and should reasonably scale. And for the purposes of the fight, a few minutes would be more than enough to hold off Wanda until her sanity comes into play.

Wasn’t Zatanna temporarily buffed by a genie when she fought Zor?

We've read the entire fight with Zor several times, but not as far as we can tell? Zatanna does use the genie/shape-shifter Gwydion to distract Zor and mimic his magic, but Zor ends up restraining and defeating Gwydion (see the first panel Zor is tearing apart).

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Seven-Soldiers-Zatanna/Issue-4?id=83473#14 

Even if you want to argue Gwydion was amping Zatanna before Zor defeated him, he definitely wasn't after, when Zatanna stopped Zor by pulling down his magical universe. Which is the impressive aspect to the fight and what matters as far as scaling goes.

We'll admit, the fight is a pretty trippy and confusing mess, but assuming Zatanna was being amped for the entire fight, she recaptures Gwydion in a jar, and uses him one last time in Seven Soldiers. His status passed that is unknown, but theoretically she should be capable of accessing and using him again.

Can Zatanna really use magic without backwards words?

As the episode explains, yes. Zatanna has shown multiple other methods of using magic.

Writing incantations out in blood and fire.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-League-of-America-2006/Issue-24?id=27423#13 

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Zatanna-2010/Issue-5?id=33677#5 

Using magic via sigils and runes.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Wonder-Woman-and-Justice-League-Dark-The-Witching-Hour/Full?id=140757#9 

Using energy blasts without speaking backwards.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-League-Dark/Issue-29?id=3383#12 

Using magic with just thought.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Zatanna/Issue-2?id=57579#14 

Using magic by just speaking normally, and affirming that the backwards words are just a concentration exercise.

https://i.imgur.com/yogNS4E.jpg 

So, just sealing Zatanna’s mouth, or the like wouldn’t be an insta-win for Wanda. In order to fully keep Zatanna from using magic, you’d probably have to remove all sound, and fully restrain Zatanna to the degree that she’s completely immobile, so she can’t use any runes or write anything. Something that’s unlikely to happen given Zatanna’s experience as an escape artist, and Wanda’s weakened sanity when pushed to the limit. And even then, Zatanna could likely escape using just the magic she can make from concentrated thought.

But aren’t Zatanna’s non-verbal spells much weaker?

Possibly? As far as we know, it’s never outright stated they’re any weaker than her normal magic. Most of Zatanna’s impressive feats are obviously done using backwards magic, but if we want to get into semantics, the barrier that held off Pralaya was teeechnically created without any backwards words, or words period. Though since that barrier was made with magic ‘mirages’ made by Zatanna’s essence, it probably isn’t super indicative of what her non-verbal spells can do.

Regardless, assuming her non-verbal magic is much weaker than her regular backwards magic, you don’t need a spell of omniversal power to create a new mouth, break out of some restraints, or add sound to a localized space. And Zatanna has demonstrated enough quick thinking in situations where an opponent has tried to stop her from speaking that it more often than not wouldn’t be an issue.