Goku Black vs Reverse Flash Q and A

 

 "The following is the opinion of only those involved in its writing. It is not officially endorsed by Rooster Teeth Productions or necessarily representative of the views of the Death Battle staff at large."

          Dragon Ball cosmology questions

Can you explain Dragon ball Microcosm scaling

Ok so one of the big things with the size of the Dragon ball universe is that it’s technically larger than a normal universe. Essentially the whole thing is in a sphere, with “heaven” taking up part of that sphere outside what we would consider the mortal universe. Being the bottom. The universe also extends outside this bubble, with the “land of the kais” which the supreme kai planet floats around in. Whenever a character threatens to destroy universe 7, they have to go to each of these places.

We normally assume the mortal universe is the volume of our observable universe and that’s it. In order to find the volumes and lengths for everything else we turn the volume of the mortal universe into a number of px3, then say that’s equal to the 4e80 of our universe. Then cross reference that with the volume of everything else.

Mortal world diameter=325px

Radius=162.5px

Mortal world height=140px

Earth+heaven world diameter=334px

Radius=167px

Heaven height=201px

Kai dimension=90px

Kai radius-45px

Demon realm height=31px

Everything diameter=573px

Radius=286.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/pyramid-volume

https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/sphere-volume

Volume of mortal world=7,409,551 px3 =4e80m3

1px3=5.3984378e+73m3

Volume of heaven + earth=19,509,135 px3=1.0531885e+81m3

Volume of kai world=381,704px3=2.0606053e+79

Volume of demon realm=9930px3=5.3606487e+77m3

Volume of everything=98,505,956px3=5.3177828e+81m3

https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/radius-of-sphere

Volume of everything=5.3177828e+81m3 (13.29x)

Is the microcosm cannon?

Yes it was shown in the super manga. Many of its locations are also directly shown in the 90s anime, video games, and multiple designs from atwork over the years

Akira also  created the microcosm idea himself, and has repeatedly referred to it over the years

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/daizenshuu-4-akira-toriyama-super-interview/

Akira mentions he drew the afterlife map as a reference to the animation studio.

The afterlife was another place besides Earth that became the setting of the story, after Planet Namek. What kind of style did you think up the afterlife?

For God’s temple, I gave it a comparatively mysterious feeling, but on the other hand I thought it’d be good to have the afterlife be realistic. So Enma-daiō and the oni all wore suits like salary-men. I think you can see this by looking at the world map in this book, but there’s a thing called the airport to Heaven. The background on that is that the people who go to Heaven all have to go by plane. This complete map was originally background information that I drew at the request of the anime people, but I took this opportunity to add the Kaiōshin World, which wasn’t included in the complete map before, to make it perfect. In truth, this complete world map is something I made after I finished drawing the story, to make everything consistent. (laughs) With me, I think up the story in advance, then come up with the world’s background information to be consistent with it. I guess that if I was a normal cartoonist who did things properly, I’d think up the background information first and then come up with the story. Saying that, you’d think that I don’t really think through anything. There’s a vague image, even before I create the story. (laughs)

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-character-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/

Akira again mentions that he came up with the microcosm idea for dragon ball and how it works. Also mentions Zeni is equal to Yen in value. Akira also explains that saiyans stay young for long periods of time before rapidly aging.

How did you come up with the ball-like cosmos?

I think it’s something I came up with so both I and the readers would be able to grasp the atmosphere of it easily. The big ball in the center is the world known as “this life” and “the afterlife”, and the one who watches over it from outside is Kaiōshin. Only, at the bottom, as though in opposition, a Makaiōshin2 exists, and governs evil. (Although right now, Kaiōshin’s power appears to be greater.)

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/db-full-color-majin-buu-arc-05/ 

Akira again references the spherical world of dragon ball. It’s clearly still canon

Q8: What sort of place is the Demon Realm?

Toriyama: It’s a hideout for mages!

The Demon Realm is located in the universe, but its scale is very small, the size of a hideout for mages. The mages live in the Demon Realm like evil goblins.

Fusion: Inside Scoop

The Secret Behind the Spherical World

Toriyama: I thought up the ball-like world so that it’d be easy for both me and the readers to wrap our minds around!

The central big ball has the worlds called the living world and afterlife, and the Kaiōshin oversee all that from the outside. As their antithesis, at the bottom of the big ball are the Makaiōshin, who govern evil. Currently, it seems the Kaiōshins’ power is superior.

Does DB only have 4 galaxies?

http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-worldview.php 

-It’s specifically stated  in the world guides that the Dragonball universe is not 4 galaxies in the conventional sense. It’s stated in the universe definition that the universe there are "nebulae" composed of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" composed of innumerable nebulae.

Jaco also refutes this idea of there only being “4 galaxies” in Dragon Ball Super

• DBS ep 31 4:40 Jaco says the galaxy Earth is in is large and that there’s countless galaxies in the universe

DB have separate space-times

The different locations on the DB map are separated by barriers of sorts, which you normally can't cross without certain abilities or authority. For example Goku falls into hell during Z filler, and a cloud barrier prevents him from traveling back to snake way. This is what people mean by DB having multiple space/times, though it should be made clear they all still exist on the same "timeline". It's more along the lines of having multiple adjacent pocket dimensions taking up the same space.

Is the Dragon Ball universe infinite and ever expanding

There’s a “handful” of statements that can be interpreted this way. In addition to the quote from the world guides above, you have these..

The unknown, explored only by that which is small. An infinite space filled with light and darkness."

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/742844178861523004/752747256595349567/Universe.png

‘Infinitely expansive universe”

main-qimg-0a8bd2d29981b1c2d5ca5a7dae17e146.png (602×444) (discordapp.com)

"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east and west Manage the universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world. "

1ae3acdaf6c17e01f6a0be6d7ff6cbea41324cf7r1-996-386v2_hq.jpg (996×386) (narvii.com)

"The darkness that stretches out into infinity and illuminates galaxies. Dozens to hundreds millions of light years away, beyond the light of the stars, there are uncountable monsters beyond imagination."

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/742844178861523004/752747277449166968/Daiz4-pag20.jpg.webp

However it’s pretty likely that most of these cases are simply flowery language. We’ve seen the microcasims from the outside before, and they have a set design. It’s also specifically stated that earth is on the edge of universe 7 and it's a plot point the DBZ characters had to travel to the center of their universe to use the dragon radar to locate the super dragon balls. Neither of those statements would be possible if the universe was infinite in size.

DBS ep 29 21:05 Bulma explains that earth is on the edge of the universe and that to find the super dragon balls they need to move the radar more towards the center.

Bulma says the universe has an edge in the manga

iUGZspq.png (420×293) (imgur.com)

General Goku Black questions

Can you explain Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue

Super Saiyan blue is essentially a combination of the Super saiyain God form and the standard Super saiyan form. This creates a hybridized form with blue hair. That's how form was described to work in art books leading up to the revival of F. As well as why Super Saiyan Blue was originally called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Blue is literally the Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan god.

• Revival F 1:02:19 Goku takes on the SSGSS form for the first time. Later renamed SS blue. It’s stated to be the SS form of SS god

• DBS ep 24 20:29 Goku explains that he learned to tap into the power of SSG on his own and that Blue is the SS level of that form

Is Goku’s base form as Strong as Super Saiyan God was in the super first arc

Edit: Please read this entire section rather than paraphrasing a single line. People seem to be unclear about what it's actually saying.

Essentially when Goku “absorbs' ' the god form when fighting Beerus he gains access to a new form. This is the “beyond Saiyan'' form. In this form Goku can partially tap into the SS God forms power without fully transforming into SSJ God. The file posted in the last section even alludes to this when it says ”control god like power without transforming”

https://dragonballuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Saiyan_Beyond_God 

So speculatively Goku can tap into like 80% of the SS God’s power without becoming a Super Saiyan god outright. Since God power is so much more potent, it essentially makes his “base” form stronger than a SS3 on its own. Though if he’s using 100% of that godly power after mastering God Ki he’ll just become SS God outright, rather than amplifying his base form.

The confusion comes because Akira has flip flopped on how the god forms were supposed to work. Such as not really intending for the normal SS God form to show up again after battle of gods, only to change his mind later. As well as the fact  that Goku’s SS form and SS god aren't part of a linear transformation line. Which is something a lot of people don't understand, because they can't understand Goku stacking portions of the SS gods power onto his other forms without needing to shift thought SS 1-3.

Please explain Dragon Ball universal multiplies

SS 1 is 50x from base

SS 2 is 2x from SS 1

SS 3 is 4x from SS 2

SS God is more speculative, but we normally say the form is at least 5x stronger than a character's hypothetical power in SS3. Since it required 5 saiyans to do the ritual, and Goku was fairly outclassed by Beerus as a SS3. That said you do not need to go or know the normal SS forms to go to God since it’s a separate transformation line. It’s just naturally really strong on its own because of god Kis potency.

SS Blue is 50X from SS God. Since it’s applying the normal SS form to SS God.

Kioken is obviously multiplied by the number given(x10 or x20)

Fusion we normally say is 2x the strongest form of the person in a fusion. Since it’s been stated by Whis’s sister that fusion multiplies the power of both characters multiple times over. As well as the fact Vegito/Gogeta was stronger in his base than Goku or Vegeta in the Buu arc and the Super Broly movie.

This would also mean that for say Gogeta he would start with all of Goku’s multipliers then x 2 as his base(since Gogeta in base is Stronger than Goku or Vegeta). Then would have the SS God multiplier(x 400 x 5) then x 50 for blue.

How do you think multipliers apply to Dragon Ball fights

Goku’s universe feat was done as a SS God. So all universe feats in Dragonball start from that form. 

The Dragonball universe we have is 13.29x our universe size.

So Blue is x50 for 664.5 our universe

Then x 20 for Kioken

ETC

Obviously characters of similar power to the Saiyans count.

Ultra instinct’s increase is less clear btw. Mainly because it was implied to be as strong as Beerus or Broly, but DBs writing keeps moving the goalpost for both in terms of power.

For the sake of this fight Goku Black is compared to SSB Goku which is 664.5 universes 

Likewise fused Zamasu is compared to Vegito/Gogeta which is 1,329,000,000 universes

What about Jiren’s shaking an infinite void feat

This happened far after the Goku Black arc, so it doesn’t scale. Not to mention the word “infinite” was a mistranslation of eternal, which would imply the null realm has just been around forever chronologically.

General Reverse Flash questions

How big is the DC universe

The DC universe is at least 100 trillion ly diameter which is 1,243,323,440 x our universe size based on volume.

Additionally according to Superman, the DCU expands at 60 trillion light years in half a second. That’s 120 trillion ly a second. The DCU is 20 billion years old. Thus, the diameter of the DCU would be:120,000,000,000,000 x 60 x 60 x 24 x 365 x 20,000,000,000

= 7.56864e31 ly across

=5.39e59 x our universe size

I’ll also add that while in real life the big bang expands faster during the initial explosion and then at a more gradual speed afterward. That initial expansion happens in  10−32  seconds and only over the first 10.6 light years. Most of the expansion described in this DC panel would have happened during the slower gradual expansion of the universe, rather than that initial expansion, hence you can extrapolate it (and 60 trillion light years a second is much much slower than 10.6 ly in 10e-32 seconds anyway).

How much Stronger is Flash universe than Dragon ball

Zoom is 1871066.12491 x stronger than Black when using the 100 trillion radius 

and 4.055681e+50 stronger than fused Zamasu using the high end DC universe size based on expansion.

Even if we assume infinite zamasu has the Gogeta/Vegito multipliers and scaled to all 12 universes in dragon ball in all 7 “canon” timelines, thereby buffing him up to 111636000000 universes. Reverse flash would still be 4.8281916e+48 x stronger.

Would flash still win even if the Dragon Ball universes were infinite?

It really wouldn’t matter. There’s plenty of statements in DC that can imply the universe is infinite and some even imply singular universes have multiple dimensions.(scroll down slightly on this page). Busting a single DC universe is just more impressive than Dragon Ball regardless of how you slice it. It’s honestly mute anyway since Reverse flash would scale to Barry and Wally’s multiversal feats anyway.

What about Dragon Ball heroes

Dragon Ball heroes is basically the Archie Sonic of the Dragon Ball fandom. While it’s clearly based on “canon” concepts of the main series, it extrapolates far outside the realms of what would be considered reasonable for a composite. I would personally say it's unlikely to show up for a random Dragon Ball character, unless the fight is specified to be using an incarnation from that media.

If you did use Dragon Ball heroes would Zoom still win

Taking a quote from the Sonic vs Wally Q and A

“DC’s multiverse is also infinite, but is multi-dimensional, with some claims even putting it at infinitely dimensional. And each universe within the infinite multiverse is subject to an infinite number of alternate universes differentiated by branching timelines. So an infinity of infinity. This is known as the metaverse. This is all contained within the Bleed, below the Speed Force, as evidenced by Grant Morrison’s cosmology map. Here are some extra sources that explain it all in greater detail:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/dc-cosmology-1903336/

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PrinceOfTheMorning/DC_Cosmology_-_From_a_Holistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b0PktXUqD4 “

So the short answer is it might be closer, but Goku Black would proooooobably still lose. Even in Xenoverse/Heroes the most you can really argue for is multiversal+, with maybe 1 dimension on top of that with some levity(and it honestly takes waaaay more steps to get to that point than DC). DC’s multiverse is much larger in comparison and frankly Zoom would still be stronger if you decide to take dimensional tiering seriously, because of the bleed. Not to mention Zoom has far more “incalculable” speed feats than you can possibly argue for heroes(which has maybe one or two feats, which are contested).

This doesn’t get into the fact that technically Xenoverse, Online and Heroes are all separate continuities. As well as the fact many of the Heroes games/media like the victory mission, ultimate mission X, world mission, the various anime/manga ect are also essentially separate adaptations with similar concepts.There really isn’t some grand master plan that ties this stuff together. It's all fanservice and most of the attempts to connect it all into something cohesive is mainly just fan theory.

The only argument I’ve ever seen is people trying to say Heroes is “outerversal”  because the player character in Heroes, “Beat”, Comes from the “real world''. Then that this “real world” looks down upon Dragonball as fiction. But that’s always been heavily extrapolating imo. Beat’s world in heroes is pretty consistently portrayed as just being a future timeline of Dragon Ball GT, and has cameos, references and so on pointing to that being the case as early as 2012. 

Regardless if you have to go this far, it’s pretty clear Black can’t win without some heavy benefits of the doubt.

Misc questions

Can Reverse flash nullify the time rings paradox protection

The fact Black’s paradox protection comes from a physical object is a weakness. Nothing is stopping Zoom from learning about how the time ring works via the timestream, or simple observation(it glows when used). Once the ring's abilities are discovered Zoom can just vibrate the Ring off Black’s finger or remove it with superior speed. I’ve also seen people argue the negative speed force can neg acausality as well.

Who has the better time traveling abilities

Zoom's time traveling is much less restrictive than Black’s. Zoom can go to the past, future and alternate timelines at will under his own power. Black can only time travel using the time ring, which can be removed or destroyed. Likewise the time ring only allows Black to go to the future or between alternate timelines. It can technically open up holes in space to follow Zoom if he travels to the past, similar to how Black followed Trunks’s time machine in the anime. But time traveling with the time ring this way isn’t permanent, and pulls Black back to his starting point after a set amount of time.

Can Black counter Zooms aging ability

Ironically no. In Black’s original body of a Kai he would have lived around 75,000 based on DB interviews. But Saiyain’s lifespans are stated to be around 80 according to Akira Toriyma and Vegeta himself meaning Goku's stolen body would be easily killed via this attack.

DBS Ep 32 3:43 Goku says saiyans stay youthful until about 80

Can Black counter Zooms invisibility

Yes, via the Ki sense

Can zoom counter Blacks thunder shock surprise

Yes. Zoom can vibrate through the energy  force fields created by Hal Jordan’s lantern ring. Other speed force users like Wally West can also phase through energy.

Could the “work of the gods” move hypothetically neg Zooms durability and cut him due to spatial cutting hax

In theory, yes. Zooms molecules are still occupying space. Granted it’s unlikely to hit due to the speed difference and Black has never used this attack in this manner.

Can zoom counter Black’s mass replication

Hypothetically yes. Zoom has traveled to locations he’s been before in time/space and seen himself, meaning multiple of him can exist at once. While out of character he could make an army of himself if needed.

If we gave Black Future Zamasu to create fused/Infinite Zamasu or if we count the manga where Black technically gained immortality after his cells fused with future Zamasu’s, could Zoom still kill them.

Yes, Zoom could hypothetically charge Black with energy the same way he did to Iris, and then travel to the future to set off the trigger to destroy the entire timeline. Zoom also scales to Barry and Wally who were able to destabilize the entire multiverse by running. Nuking the entire timeline Fused/Infinite Zamasu was in was exactly how the Omni-King destroyed him, so we know this can work.

What are your thoughts on Black teaming up with Zamasu or using fused Zamasu

"Note this is Ultra's opinion"

I personally feel like adding Zamasu to the fight kinda detracts from Goku Black. Once you add him in, the entire fight really starts to center more around Zamasu’s immortality and the various fused zamasu forms. Not to mention utilizing Zamasu literally removes Goku Blacks physical appearance from the episode and would probably take up a ton of animation time. Acknowledging it in the tabs seemed like it was the best compromise. 

That said, I think if “Zamasu” himself was in a separate ep, all that stuff would be much more on the table.

Can Black overcome Zoom’s immortality

No. Goku Black didn’t learn Hakai and has no abilities that can permanently erase Zoom’s soul from all time. Though given Hakai failed against black due to him having protection against paradoxes via the time ring, I would imagine it would fail against Zoom anyway. 

But doesn’t Zoom dying mean the fight is over?

This is a grey area in Death Battle, but essentially the fight is only over if a character can be put down and rendered unable to fight for a “substantial” amount of time. Say a few hours to a day. If a character literally can’t die or has a way to keep engaging in a fight that’s near immediate in real time, it doesn’t count as a loss.

Can Black counter Zooms mind control

Black himself has never shown resistance to mind control. Technically Vegeta has done this by being mind controlled by Babadi. But Zoom’s mind control works more via speed force energy and physiological manipulation, rather than magic or Ki.

List of Hax and abilities Zoom has that can be used against Black 

- Phasing into Black and messing with his organs

- Aging him into dust

- Ripping him apart molecularly by running back and forth

- Knocking him out with his telepathic blast

- Dumping him into the Negative Speed Force where he'll be ripped apart atom by atom and absorbed into it

- IF he's able to figure out about the time ring and remove it, time travel and murder

- Create a vacuum to suffocate him

- Read Black's mind (could be a way to figure out about the time ring)

- Resurrect and time travel back to the fight if killed

- Vibrating into and possessing Black's body (Black's soul would get dumped into the speed force)

- Create afterimages to fool Black

- Change his age to camouflage himself (he can look young or old to appear to be a different person)

- Utilize time travel as a method of escape or to inform his past self of Black's abilities

-He also has some hax gadgets from the silver age like a matter manipulating device and a shrinking ray

Is destroying the hyperbolic time chamber uni.

Probably only with leniency. I only really recall it being stated to be as large as the earth, so it’s probably a pocket dimension.