Monday, July 11, 2016

Ultraguy's Thoughts And Opinions Regarding Archie Sonic

Forward

OK so this is a blog I’ve been meaning to do for a LOOOOOOOOONG time. A blog addressing feats and characters from Archie Sonic comics. It’s an issue that comes up every time a Sonic character gets into Death Battle, and frankly a recent addition to the website Tv tropes complaining about the inclusion of media from this comic finally set me over the edge and made me get off my lazy ass.

Frankly everyone seems to have this idea that Archie Sonic characters are all OP. That they’re all MFTL dimension destroyers or something incredibly ridicules like that. In fact the reputation for this media being overpowered has catapulted so far out of control, that you can barely even talk about it anymore without immediately being shut down by tons of people on almost any forum for using such deviant Sonic material.

Well personally as a long time reader of the comic I can’t help but think that a lot of things people say regarding its placement vs wise are total bullshit.  Frankly 99% of the time people talk about Archie Sonic they take things out of context or parrot things they’ve heard without actually reading the full comic.

It really needs to stop and to accomplish that I’m going to go through all the “OP feats” and “op characters” one by one to deconstruct the false beliefs about them. Hopefully this will prove useful for people to use as a reference it this issue comes up again.

For a reference by the way SCE= Sonic comic encyclopedia.Most of the the other abbreviations should be pretty self explanatory. I’m going to assume people understand most basic Sonic concepts.  Additionally there were two Eggman’s in the original comics run. An original who went by the name of Robotnik and an alternate one from another dimension called 
Eggman who came to Sonic’s world after the original died.

Laying down some context

So before we begin I feel like I need to lay down some context for a few Archie subjects people often times get confused about. Firstly the internal writing consistency and different eras of the book. What exactly zones are and the differences between the chaos emeralds in the comic and games.

The “eras” of Archie Sonic

The silly era
Archie comics didn’t start off a serious action oriented adventure comic. In fact while it was technically inspired by the fairly serious and then well-known Satam Sonic cartoon of the 1990s, it also took many cues from the sillier and more gag oriented adventures of sonic the hedgehog show of the same time period.  Characters from that show like Scratch, grounder and coconuts even appeared fairly regularly early on in the comic run.
STH 2 pg 9
Because of this the early era of the comics had a slew of 4th wall breaking, typically having characters directly reference the reader or asking them to help them with tasks in the book.
STH 1 pg 17
STH 2 pg 17
STH 4 pg 10
STH 11 pg 15
STH 13 pg 5
STH 25 pg 25
STH 31 pg 24
STH mini 0 pg 5

The plots of early comics also tended to be fairly nonsensical, and child friendly.
STH 15 pg 23
STH 16 pg 5
and occasionally the comic spurned onto elements of blatant toon force. Typically with Sonic doing things that were quite frankly physically impossible or being in situations that were illogical for the sake of laughs.
STH 7 pg 14
STH 8 pg 10
STH 33 pg 8
Now a lot of people say the comic kept a tone like this up until around issue 25, where an actual plot started to kick in after Robotnik built metal Sonic. But in my personal opinion I’d say this era lasted until around at least the mids 30s if not all the way until the classic “endgame” arch started in the late 40s.
The classic (WTF) era 50-160
STH 152 pg 15
Starting after endgame arch in the 50s, the comic got a bit more serious and story oriented in both good and bad ways. Some of the writers of this period started a bad habit of writing about relationship drama, as well as inflating the cast and taking the story in occasionally weird directions. There was also a pretty infamous rivalry between the two authors Ken penders and Karl Bollars over the direction of the story, which caused the consistency of the plot to flip flop a bit.

Given the comic was based on two early cartoons of the Sonic series made when the games didn’t have fleshed out story, the general foundation for the comics world also clashed A LOT when Sega started actually adding storylines into Sonic during the sonic adventure era.  A lot of this inconsistency remained until around the 160s or so.

The Ian Flynn era
It was probably around 160 where the comics gained more internal consistency in writing and tone, with a new writer Ian Flyne taking over. He’s written ever issue since, and until the recent reboot, had focused a lot on closing loose plot threads, introducing new sega game sonic characters and bringing more outdated concepts of the comic more into line with their game counterparts    (reducing the number of emeralds to seven for example).

His nearly 150 issue run is probably what I would consider the “modern run” of the Sonic comic, and is typically the consistency I think most people should judge the comic by today.

Pre-genesis to post-genesis
While Ian’s still the current writer of the comic, a big shake up around issue 251 Shook up the comic world immensely. Basically the previous writer Ken Penders sued for the rights to certain comic original characters in the book. The legal troubles caused by him where so great the comic basically had to soft-reboot and purge tons of previous characters and world concepts to start from scratch.

The reboot is referred to as Post-genesis and the old continuity is called Pre-Genesis. Post is pretty much its own beast, though certain characters retained memories of the old world. For the sake of simplicity nothing from post is really going to be talked about in depth here, particularly given most of the feats and characters worth talking about are from pre.

What is a zone?

Ok so this is probably one of the first things that needs to be addressed given several different calcs and assumptions are based around abusing it.

What exactly is a zone in the sonic Archie comics pre-genesis?

Well honestly it’s actually an umbrella term of sorts. According to the SCE a “zone” can refer to a completely alternate plane of reality, akin to that you would find in in say the marvel multiverse. A zone can also be a pocket dimension, which is only somewhat separate from a main dimension but smaller than a full alternate reality. Finally a zone can refer to geographical area, such as a forest in a woodland.
SCE pg 105
You can see the basic description of zones in this scan. Though I’ll also elaborate a bit more below.

Alternate reality zones
SSS 10 pg 21
Like I said alternate reality zones are just that, a completely alternate realities comprising an entire universe. All alternate reality zones in the Sonic comic are also said to be offshoots of the main universe. What’s probably the easiest example of an alternate reality zone, is the sol zone which is the zone Blaze inhabits. Another famous zone is anti-Mobius, kind of a bizarre version of the main Sonic universe that contains evil versions of all the main characters.

Pocket zones
Pocket zones do not have a defined size, though they have been at least the size of cities. A good example of a pocket zone was the dimensional space the city of echidnaopolis was placed inside (through technology).
SCE pg 39
Another called city knothole also got trapped within a small pocket dimension, due to outside interference on Robotnik’s part.
KTE 4 pg 24
KTE 5 pg 22
The pre-genesis “special zone” was also one of these, being a mixture of two prior pocket zones called the zone of silence and the void (though worth mentioning there was actually more than one special zone feature in the comic overall).
SCE pf 113
Pocket zones do not need to be offshoots of the main Sonic verse, as even alternate dimension zones have been said to have their own parallel versions of the pocket dimensions found in the main universe. An example of this being the zone of silence existing in anti Mobius, while it also existed as a major plot point in on the regular Mobius.
SSS 10 pg 16
This has also been confirmed by Shadow and Tails on one occasion.
STH 169 pg 11

Geographical zones
Finally geo graphical zones. These are pretty self-explanatory. Some examples of these include Sandopplis zone on Angle Island.
KTE mini 2 pg 5

Common ways to transport between zones
OK so another point worth talking about. How exactly do Sonic and co transport themselves between zones and pocket zones. Well here’s the answer.
SCE pg 130
One way is through various types of technology.  For example stands called star posts can created portals between dimensions. 
STH 189 pg 2
Another common method of travel is warp rings.
STH 195 pg 11
Other forms of technology also exists for this purpose.
STH 156 pg 13
Lastly those with various types of chaos powers (generally chaos control) or certain magical abilities can also cross between dimensions.
KTE 3 pg 21
SS Bast pg 19

The cosmic interstate
It’s was also possible to cross between dimensions using a dimensional crossway called the “cosmic interstate”. It was basically a road through space/time that connects different worlds.
STH 11 pg 3
Movement into the cosmic interstate was normally heavily regulated by a multiversal police cop called Zonic, who actually allowed Sonic to access it or created portals for him to enter alternate dimensions in his early days without him knowing it.
SSS 8 pg 10
That being said after the events of Sonic 50 and the firing of a space/time weapon called the ultimate annihilator, some barriers between the dimensions broke down a bit allowing characters to move between dimensions more easily.
STH 59 pg 3
Zonic also had a harder time keeping track of unregulated zone travel after this, as well as because of war he was fighting against a character named Eggman nega later in the comics run.

Creating zones
On a final note zones or at least pocket zones can be created through artificial means.

Eggman did this in issue 25, creating the collision chaos zone. http://i.imgur.com/ZoKzGhL.jpg , http://i.imgur.com/CmShAOa.jpg   http://i.imgur.com/JE26Bx6.jpg

Eggman and wily also used chaos energy to make a pocket zone in Megaman 24 

The firing of Eggman’s ultimate annihilator weapon in STH 50 created several zones.

Chaos emeralds have given off energy that have created new zones spontaneously in SS triple trouble.

Chaos Emeralds and their properties
SCE pg 124
It should be noted that there are several different types “emerald” in the Archie verse than the game verse and that the comic’s concepts for how they work differs slightly from the games. Basically Archie comics has a concept similar to the speed force from the flash when it comes to chaos energy, called the “chaos force”. It’s like a huge mystical energy field that people can draw power from. Some people like shadow and knuckles can naturally draw some power from it, though others use objects like Chaos emeralds(which have a more natural link to the force) to do so.

Now early on in the comics run there were actually dozens of green chaos emeralds all over Sonic’s planet, which the characters would use for super transformations and such. The other colors of chaos emeralds instead existed elsewhere in the universe, and had unique properties to them. For example red ones created evil clones
STH 126 pg 11
STH 126 pf 12
It wasn’t until much later in the comics run that the writers wrote in a plot that merged all these emeralds into seven, which then worked similarly to their game counterparts.
STH 170 pg 4
Additionally the comic contained objects called “super emeralds”. These were not simply powered up versions of the chaos emeralds like in the games. Instead they were actually lifeforms known as chao, who absorbed power from a monster named chaos turning into a crystalline state.
SSS 13 pg 7
A super emerald appeared to have much more power than a normal one and appeared to change Sonic’s physical state. It also allowed him to warp time (speeding it up) on a global scale.
STH 71 pg 15
The chaos who made up these emeralds transformed back to normal and left Mobius however, making them unavailable for further use.
STH 84 pg 19

The “OP” feats
So this is what the majority of the blog is going to be spent on addressing. A lot of people consider Archie Sonic to be OP because of certain feats constantly parroted among the vs community regarding him. Well honestly I believe many of these have been taken out of context, so I feel as going through each one by one to explain the misconceptions around them would be of a great benefit.
The Ultimate annihilator
This is one of the easiest feats to deconstruct, so let’s start with it. The ultimate annihilator was a weapon created by the original Dr. Robotnik, that had the power to “erase things from existence” using timey whimey technology.
STH 50 pg 10
SSS 6 pg 28
In order to use the weapon you need to program in a specific bio signature of an object you want to erase, and then when the energy of the weapon hit those bio signatures they would be destroyed while everything else was left untouched. The canon is also meant to reflect off a satellite in space allowing the user to aim for their targets exactly.
SSS 6 pg 31
Now here’s when the feat comes in. Due to some sabotage on the side of the freedom fighters, a malfunction occurred that caused the ultimate annihilator to explode and for its energy to bounce back across Sonic’s reality. This energy engulfed Sonic and Robotnik while they were having their final fight, seemingly destroying them both. Surprisingly however Sonic survived the blast while Robotnik didn’t and hence the entire sequence was considered a durability feat for Sonic.

Additionally given it was stated the ultimate annihilator weakened barriers between zones and in fact created a few in some scans, it was also presumed that the feat could be considered multiversal(generally based on the incorrect assumption that all zones are entire dimensions).

Now unfortunately this feat falls apart ALOT when examined further. According to the SCE when the ultimate annihilator blew back it effected the ENTIRE PLANET of Mobius, causing everything to blink in and out of existence for a brief moment. Sonic wasn’t unique in terms of getting hit by it and was simply the closets to where the blast originated. So you know if he has multiversal durability from this, so do all the birds and trees in the world.
SCE pg 134
This is also confirmed to be what happened in one of the issues of the KE comic book.
KTE 6 pg 11
Likewise it was also confirmed both in the encyclopedia scan above and in Sonic 50, that the character Snively had sabotaged the ultimate annihilator and had reprogramed its energy to only effect those with Robotnik’s bio signature.
SSS 6 pg 38
Sonic was never in any danger from this weapon, and in fact could not be harmed by it. The SCE even mentions he merely blipped out of existence along with everything else due to the blast while being untouched, not that he tanked it.

So there Sonic did not tank this weapon, and it’s pretty much confirmed in source material everyone was effected by the weapon the same way and where immune for the same exact reasons.
It does not grant multiversal durability. It’s pretty clear cut.

The Zone bust feat
SS Super sonic vs hyper knuckles pg 27

Ok so this feat. Let’s talk about it more in depth.

The basic rundown of this feat is that Sonic and knuckles are running towards each other in their super forms at maximum speed (incalculable even) and their collision breaks down the walls of a Zones reality, causing it to be obliterated. The belief is that this puts both characters at universal
levels of power given the zone was PRESUMABLEY the size of an entire universe.

Well there’s actually a couple problems with this theory. Right off the bat the actual size of the zone entered during Super sonic vs Hyper knuckles has always been an assumption perpetuated by those who don’t know a lot about the comic. There is no context behind the zones size in the comic itself, and there is no reason to believe this was a gigantic alternate reality given we know the word zone can refer to multiple things. Frankly It was probably just a small pocket dimension, and even most sonic wikis for the comic list it as such.

Heck to be honest if the comic itself didn’t even mention the “walls of reality” I would question if this was even a pocket zone, rather than a geographical zone. The characters never have to go through a notable portal to get into it and Sally even refers to that source as Subterrnean in sonic quest.
Sonic quest 1 pg 11
Additionally some of the context of the feat throws the amount of force given into question. The entrance to this zone was literally found in a hole in the ground under a tree.
SS S v K pg 13
SS S v K pg 14
Likewise when the fight was over the heroes got ejected/flung into the air and landed right near the entrance.
SS S V K pg 30
Now maybe I’m missing something but I’m pretty sure Sonic and Knuckles would have flown a lot further I the damage they caused was as over the top as universe busting. Likewise more damage would have been caused to the outside world given the entrance was literally right there.

Now to BE fair this feat does still sound fairly impressive based on the description alone, but honestly I’m not sure you have much to draw from in that aspect either. “INCALCUABLE SPEED” could mean almost anything. It could be talking about a speed beyond our normal concept of time, it could just be exaggeration, it could be a fancy way to say really really fast,ect. Likewise exactly how much energy it would take to break the fabric of reality isn’t something you could measure definitively.

Aditionally even giving the benefit of the doubt, I also have to ask JUST how much force it takes to destroy a pocket dimension. It’s entirely possible that they may be more inherently unstable than normal more fleshed out reality  zones.

For example Interestingly in Super sonic special sonic blast, the concept of a pocket zone breaking down on itself gets brought up again in the flicky pocket zone. Eggman removes a chaos emerald from a flicky bird statue and said statue comes to life and starts releasing a screeching noise that breaks down the zone. Sonic himself even notes the sensation is the exact same as it was when he and knux destroyed a zone in Super sonic vs hyper knuckles.
 
SS Blast pg 22
SS Blast pg 23
Granted this thing was clearly bobby trapped from the start, but seriously a nameless living statue with no chaos emeralds, no feats, ect can destroy an entire pocket zone with a roar. I mean either doing this shit in the context of the comic is easier than people have been lead to believe or that we have a universal level bird statue on our hands(assuming you still want to claim that despite Pocket zones clearly being much smaller).

On another note no this is not the same Zone sent sonic to in issues 4 of the comic. In fact it was mentioned by multiple characters that there were several zones where you could find chaos emeralds and rings.
Sonic quest 1 pg 9
SS S v K pg 7

The quantum dial
STH 125 pg 25
OK so this is another feat we need to talk about. Basically the quantum dial is a super weapon used by an alien race called the Xorda. It’s a small spire with a fin connected to it that spins around the ground and opens up a rift in space time as the fin touches the ground beneath it. When it completes a full circle the rift it creates becomes a black hole purging everything in that nearby sector of space.
STH 125pg 13
STH 125 pg 14
In issue 125 Sonic runs around this weapon at super speed forcing it to close, which is thereby considered counter acting the force of a black hole by many vs debtors.
…..but there’s a few problems here.

It’s never implied the machine used pure physical force to create its rift in space-time. In fact I find it much more likely it uses some form of alien tech to accomplish the feat, given the shape of the machine gives no room for leverage anyway.  A black hole also isn’t created until the ENTIRE rotational cycles is completed, something specifically stated by a Xorda member in one of those above scans. So basically there would never have been the force of an entire black hole involved in this machine until it finished its cycle anyway.

Likewise what Sonic did in issue 125 was never stated to have anything to do with combating the force of a black hole. The quantum dial has internal gears which cause the fin section of the machine to spin counter clockwise. This is ALSO mentioned by a Xorda member in one of the above pics.
The Plan that Sonic and co were exploring was running in the opposite direction of the quantum dial, causing a force that would make the machines gears reverse in the opposite direction, which would destroy them.
STH 125 pg 21
Now on another note the explosion at the end. There’s no way to really measure how powerful this destructive blast was. All that we know is that Nicole said it would implode.

Additionally it was implied that Nicole was incorrect in her assessment anyway. The implosion of the quantum dial actually transported Sonic to a deep part of space light years away. An act that was stated to more or less be a miracle and a fluke on Sonic’s end. For those who say he physically flung to his position all across the vastness of space by the way….well implosion suggests it should have been the opposite. It’s more likely sonic was drawn into the space/time rift made by the quantum dial when it imploded, bringing him to his destination.
STH 126 pg 2
STH 130 pg 2
So you know again given Sonic a boost in stats based on this feat is pretty inadvisable.

Mammoth mogul destroys the multiverse
STH 149 pg 14
This is probably the most heavily abused and taken out of context feat in the entire sonic Archie fandom. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve seen Archie characters get brought up in vs threads, only for one person to post a single pic of this feat and for everyone to scale virtually every character to it.

To be blunt .YES Mogul did destroy several zones/universes. Zonic in Sonic isu 149 states as much and it was shown on panel that he did so.
STH 149 pg 18
However NOOOOOOOO he does not scale to anybody and no this was not a power he could wield normally under most circumstances. THERE WAS SIGNIFICANT CONTEXT TO THIS FEAT. Around the time period of this comic mogul manipulated chaos knuckles (a powered up version of knuckles) into blasting him with all the chaos energy he had stored in his body, empowering him.
Additionally when knuckles died as a result of unleashing all his power, he was given a chance to become a part of the chaos force in the afterlife, which he refused.
STH 124 pg 25
STH 125 pg 7
STH 125 pg 16
This was explained to have caused an imbalance in the chaos force which gave Mogul an opportunity to use his newfound power to take full control of the ENTIRE chaos force itself(not even just becoming a part of it like some other characters), becoming virtually omnipotent. This is something Zonic mentions in STH 149.
STH 139 pg 19
STH 149 pg 20
Mogul was arguably much more powerful than any other entity in the comic in this form, and the form he took in this comic was far beyond his base. It’s not a level of power anybody in the comic has ever matched or been shown to match under any circumstances.

The only reason why he could even be defeated was because of HIGHLY extenuating circumstances. Tails was a  “the chosen one” prophesized to save the world from this exact situation and merged together with countless versions of himself from alternate dimensions to become a cosmic being on the same order of magnitude as mogul in this storyline. He then stole the chaos energy from mogul back and basically used his power to press a cosmic reset button that removed memories of the events from several people.
STH 150 pg 22
Also worth mentioning mogul one shots Sonic in this form.
STH 150 pg 21
This is not a benchmark of power that you can compare every other character in the verse to. It’s a gigantic outlier that could only happened under specific circumstances and was only defeated under them as well.

Cosmic highway feat
SCE pg 105
This is another annoying one. In this feat Sonic runs across the cosmic highway to recruit alternate versions of himself to fight an alternate version of Eggman. The final showdown happens in an area of space time that Sonics can only get to from the cosmic highway. During the trip the Sonic passes a sign that says 140,000 light years to the next exit. People use this as a benchmark for how long the cosmic highway is, saying Sonic must be MFT in base to travers, much less use it multiple times in singular days.

So a couple of things. Firstly you don’t actually see Sonic run any length of distance in the issue where that sign appears. In the comic Sonic and his alternate selves enter the cosmic interstate and by the time they show up in another panel they’ve already reached the sign post. We don’t know how far they’ve run, just that supposedly going forward from the junctions where they stopped they have 148,000 light years to the next exit.
STH 19 pg 12
STH 19 pg 14
of course in story they don’t actually need to run to one of those supposed exits given their destination(the neutral zone) was right at that junction anyway.
STH 19 pg 15
Additionally basing a lot of calcs on this sign is ridicules, as to be honest early on in the comics run the cosmic interstate tended to have tons of goofy signs and markers for the sake of visual gags. They don’t necessarily need to be taken super seriously. The cosmic interstate is also fairly inconsistent in its design and even maps given in universe don’t tend to make actual logical sense. The fact most of Sonic’s use of the cosmic interstate happened on early on the more silly/toon force era of the comic also throw things into question.
STH 19 pg 3
STH 11 pg 4
STH 11 pg 12
Another thing worth mentioning is that Sonic isn’t the only one who can traverse the cosmic highway. Several other characters who are arguably not as fast as him have in the past.
Scourge and the anti-version of Sonic’s friends traveled the cosmic interstate on motorcycles
STH 24 pg 11
STH 25 pg 12
Sonic’s friends have followed him along it by plane.
STH 44 pg 10
Blaze has traveled it before.
SU 1 pg 7
Heck Scourge’s(anti-Sonic’s)destructix group were intent on using it
SU 30 pg 5
Finally when this event was mentioned again in a semi-modern comic, the sign was actually changed somewhat, no longer clearly saying light years (in fact it seems to say miles, though it’s hard to make out).
STH 141 pg 23
Really this feat is arguable at best and incredible vague/inconsistent at worst.

Resetting the world
STH 251 pg 9
So this is pretty much the last feat that needs addressing and is probably the only one you could argue as legitimate. Right before the start of the post genesis timeline there was a crossover with Sonic and Megaman. During this crossover Eggman and Wily attempted to use something called a Genesis wave to re-write reality, with them being gods in the new universe. The strain of the device caused changes to both characters multiverses, with Sonic and Megaman being forced to use chaos control to undo said. The basic idea is that because Sonic used chaos control in this way his power could be considered multiversal. Likewise that Super sonic has reality warping powers given he could undo such damage.

Well to be frank changing reality of the universe isn’t a power super sonic has ever shown on his own at any point in the comic. In fact it was implied it was only because the super genesis wave was built around using chaos energy, that he was able to channel and control the energy of the wave at all.
STH 251 pg 23
So more or less Sonic and Megaman hijacked the existing genesis wave for their own purpose, they can’t do this shit normally.

The reason why Sonic multiverse collapsed on itself was also because Eggman interfered with his attempt to manipulate the genesis wave.
STH 256 pg 15
MM 50 pg 18
This also gets brought up A LOT but use of emeralds through machines doesn’t always translate directly into how they can be use by living beings(I mean keep in mind there IS a lot more tech involved in those things than just the chaos energy power source). The first genesis wave Eggman used a single chaos emerald and was capable of warping reality on a global scale. It was way beyond what any other normal characters has shown to be capable of doing with single emerald in the past.
STH 225 pg 22
  
STH 229 pg 15
With all 7 Eggman/Wily where able to change all reality with no limits, which obviously can’t apply to Sonic even if he can warp reality as Super Sonic. For example Sonic and Megaman failed to fix reality with chaos control after over use of genesis portals caused it to break down during their second crossover.
MM 52 pg 15
I also have to point out (and this is just me) but if Sonic could reshape reality with no limits while in his super form virtually none of the conflicts in the comic would make sense. Sonic could literally just reshape reality to be perfect. This ability has never been used in combat either.
Overall it seems to be regulated to fixing damage to space/time caused by others, or manipulating the energy of the Genesis waves themselves through chaos control.


Character breakdowns

So there are a few characters regularly quoted as being “OP” from Archie Sonic. Well like a lot of feats they tend to have abilities taken out of context and in my opinion sometimes abused NLF.
To make this blog complete I think giving a mini-analyses of said characters would be of great benefit.
Enerjak
SCE 86
Enerjak is not a single person or entity. The “Enerjak” was originally a scientist who was given a chance to ascend from the mortal plane and become a part of the chaos force. This power corrupted him however and other entities that resided in the chaos force destroyed and spread his essence throughout it.

Whenever an echidna of weak will, evil intent or warped ideals taps into high amounts of chaos energy, they can potentially draw the lingering spirit of Enerjak to them getting possessed. This possessed avatar generally has powers on par with a super form, but permanent. Likewise each incarnation has developed different uses of powers the form provides, generally based around chaos energy.  There are a few different Enerjak’s in the comic, but the most important are general Dimitri, knuckles and an alternate version of knuckles.

Dimitri
Backstory
Long story short Dimitri was an ancient scientist from angle island. He was supposed to use an object called a chaos siphon to drain power form multiple chaos emeralds that kept it afloat, in order to return the island safely to the ground. However instead he drained the power from the emeralds and transferred it to himself.
STH 180 pg 4
STH 36 pg 18
He then had his powers taken from him and spent most of the rest of the comic being a supporting character.
KTE 9 pg 21
Powers
Can mold the earth around him into large constructs like cities KTE mini pg 18-20 http://i.imgur.com/5yi4rNR.jpg , http://i.imgur.com/7OHsnIH.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/ql7Ma6L.jpg

Can use his powers for mind control: KTE mini 3 pg 9 http://i.imgur.com/VfBY7fW.jpg

Telekinesis: KTE mini 1 http://i.imgur.com/amaucDm.jpg

Astral projection: KTE 7 pg 10 http://i.imgur.com/ns0rKsv.jpg

Can enlarge his size: KTE 7 pg 25 http://i.imgur.com/8RTocHw.jpg

Can teleport himself or others over vast distances of space: KTE 8 http://i.imgur.com/OdSLGuX.jpg  http://i.imgur.com/h17UgiD.jpg

Can atomically dismantle objects: KTE 9 pg 27 http://i.imgur.com/xaLw3sq.jpg  and KTE 9 pg 9 http://i.imgur.com/dkg7C6K.jpg

Making physical constructs of energy: KTE 9 pg 6 http://i.imgur.com/hDQIlux.jpg

Feats
Destroyed the top of a mountain: KTE mini 1 pg 12 http://i.imgur.com/dWWo9id.jpg  

Got buried alive under his castle: STH 36 pg 21 http://i.imgur.com/56C6W6S.jpg and STH 25 pg 22 http://i.imgur.com/CQsDJEH.jpg

Knuckles
Background
Knuckles became Enerjak after being tricked into accessing the master emeralds power after it had a mind hex placed on it by a character named Finitivus. Said hex warped his beliefs and ideals, making him vulnerable to being possessed.
STH 181 pg 23
Powers

Atomization: STH 181 pg 5http://i.imgur.com/5l1rxIB.jpg  

Energy shields and physical/mental healing: STH 181 pg 7 http://i.imgur.com/uzxf0pz.jpg

Teleportation: STH 181 pg 14 http://i.imgur.com/Jomziyy.jpg  

Energy projection: STH 182 pg 10 http://i.imgur.com/HQE2DBS.jpg  

Feats
Ripped off the shielding of new mobotropolis: SHT 181 pg 16 http://i.imgur.com/t7uTPfW.jpg

Tanked a chaos blast the size of a better part of a city from Shadow: STH 182 pg 7 http://i.imgur.com/yRTqOsQ.jpg  

Held dozens of heroes in place at once: STH 182 pg 12 http://i.imgur.com/we9hDiv.jpg

Disintegrating badniks: STH 183 pg 13 http://i.imgur.com/bJLIVyJ.jpg

Redirected hundreds of missiles: STH 183 pg 15 http://i.imgur.com/XZA3ymy.jpg

Caused an explosion along with sonic that took chunks out of angle island: STH 184 pg 2 http://i.imgur.com/BGpvwWn.jpg

Took a spin dash from sonic from the center of the earth: STH 184 pg 8 http://i.imgur.com/i4IS9DS.jpg

Dark knuckles
Background

Basically a knuckles from an alternate universe. In said universe his ego and ideals inflated making him vulnerable to becoming Enerjak.
Powers
Can remove a person’s life energy, referred to as a core: SU 25 pg 22 http://i.imgur.com/djAId4R.jpg

Can use said life energy to create fighters called: SU 26 pg 18 and 11 http://i.imgur.com/LmmxLBx.jpg  and http://i.imgur.com/PoMe3TS.jpg

Telekinesis: SU 26 pg 14 http://i.imgur.com/D7rIQYd.jpg  

Disintegration rays: SU 28 pg 4 http://i.imgur.com/RD43NII.jpg

Feats
Supposedly defeated almost all of the mightiest heroes and villains in Sonic: SU 25 pg 23 http://i.imgur.com/Km3Hpnk.jpg

Says he took on 100s of gun military fleets at once: SU 26 pg 17 http://i.imgur.com/oD1Zd1Z.jpg

Capable of nullifying Telekinesis used on himself: SU 26 pg 22 http://i.imgur.com/nN6Xvzm.jpg

Was said to have sank a continent into the ocean: SU 27 pg 14 http://i.imgur.com/oRrgwct.jpg

A laser blast doesn’t bother him: SU 27 pg 18 http://i.imgur.com/fKKokyo.jpg

Can telekinetically move an island: SU 28 pg 6 http://i.imgur.com/5vgMVNH.jpg

Can survive being hit by his own attacks: SU 28 pg 16 http://i.imgur.com/P1fBmtZ.jpg  

Thoughts
Firstly Enerjak’s power is wanked WAAAAAY out of proportion. Some people clearly saw his bio in some comics or the SCE and saw the section that said “power restricted only by the imagination of the user” and used it as a blatant NLF. Yes while it’s certainly true different Enerjak’s have created different uses for their abilities based on their personality, but none of them have actual feats that make them multiversal reality warpers or anything else nearly as crazy.  A lot of his vs placement also comes from being scaled to mammoth mogul’s reality destroying feat, which as I mentioned before was taken out of context.

…….That being said out of all the characters people talk about, he actually is quite powerful. We’re talking about a character who’s basically in super form permanently, who has feats of moving islands, destroying continents and fighting other super level characters. He also does have some hax depending on the incarnation, particularly soul, mind and molecular hax. The fact his transformation is permanent and well controlled, also gives him a leg up on most super form characters.
Of course that being said I should ALSO point out that interestingly Enerjak is the only Archie villain who has never been defeated in a direct confrontation.

When knuckles first fought the Dimitri version of Enerjak in his own miniseries, he actually goaded him into fighting him without any of his godlike powers. His father and comrades then sprung a trap on him that basically trapped him in an energy matrix inside a castle and flung him into space.
KTE mini 3 pg 21
KTE mini 3 pg 22
When Dimitri made his eventual return, his involvement in the plot was actually a pre-ordained trap for him on the part of the character mammoth mogul. He also wasn’t beaten head on, but was taken off guard by having his power sapped from him by an object called the sword of acorns.
KTE 9 pg 21
When knuckles became Enerjak he was in complete control of almost every fight he was in outside his final showdown with super sonic. Heck he willingly held back against his friends and showed himself to be capable of debilitating pretty much every hero in the sonic verse at once when he wanted.
STH 182 pg 11
The only reason why the fight against Super Sonic even stopped was because the hex that warped knux’s mind and made him susceptible to becoming Enerjak in the first place got broken.
STH 184 pg 15
It’s also worth mentioning he was actually fairly depleted of power before his fight with Super sonic even started anyway.
STH 183 pg 16
and finally Dark Enerjak/knuckles? Well he willingly held back and f@#ked around with his universes surviving heroes and Silver for the sake of entertainment. He evens says this outright multiple times.
SU 27 pg 5
SU 27 pg 22
The only reason why he got defeated is because Silver took him off guard by reflecting his own attacks back at him, which bypassed his durability (because apparently his own attacks could affect him). Even then it’s pretty obvious he could have killed Silver very easily if he had wanted to, and WOULD HAVE if the character Jani-ca hadn’t taken him off guard to drain his powers away.
SU 28 pg 17
SU 28 pg 18
So yeah even if you do want to scale people to this guy, it’s kind of hard to given he’s beaten more often through wit and cunning rather than brute force anyway.

Chaos knuckles
Background
SCE 16
So basically in the comics knuckles was genetically engineered to have a higher connection to the chaos force and have higher usage of chaos powers than most normal echidnas. After a life threatening incident these powers manifested in a green transformation called chaos knuckles, which was referred to as being a living chaos emerald.
STH 90 pg 23
Knux kept the transformation for a time, but eventually died after being tricked into having his power absorbed by the character mammoth mogul.
STH 118 pg 23
He then basically went to his version of the afterlife and was given an opportunity to become part of the chaos force, which he refused due to his friends back on the mortal plane being put in life threatening danger at the time.
STH 121 pg 16
STHE 121 pg 17
STH 124 pg 25
STH 125 pg 16
After refusing to become part of the chaos force knuckles returned to the mortal world, were he subsequently lost the form and most of his special abilities like gliding(though he managed to get some of these back at a later date).
STH 125 pg 23
His chaos powers were rendered dormant after this, though it was shown in some potential future storylines that the ability for them to be re-activate did exists under specific circumstances.
STH 140 pg 21
Powers

Healing: STH 117 pg 20 http://i.imgur.com/uMhpWZ1.jpg

Can produce energy eye beams: STH 97 pg 20 http://i.imgur.com/92cwy0g.jpg

Teleportation: STH 97 pg 20 http://i.imgur.com/oezGb6t.jpg and STH 95 pg 20 http://i.imgur.com/Rbjd75f.jpg

Created flowers seemingly out of nothing: STH 115 pg 24 http://i.imgur.com/ZTo5YJ2.jpg

Feats
Teleported people out of an alternate zone: STH 106 pg 24 http://i.imgur.com/2X9ZvfT.jpg

It was said his power increased exponentially over time: STH 94 pg 21 http://i.imgur.com/2NTgSbD.jpg

Blasts through the entirety of angle island: STH 95 pg 23 http://i.imgur.com/QyOYmiZ.jpg

Fought on par with turbo tails(granted this was a fake and it didn’t want to fight him anyway) STH 97 pg 19 http://i.imgur.com/2f6s36n.jpg

Thoughts
Does Chaos knuckles live up to the hype…well sorta. There are definitely statements that Knuckles powers in this form where on par with and possibly even higher than Dimitri’s version of enerjak. This form is also permanent outside of extreme circumstances as well, meaning it doesn’t have the weaknesses of a super form.

Though honestly all things considered Knux doesn’t have any actual feats in this form that implie he’s a universe buster or anything of the like. It’s also been stated and shown many times in the comics and SCE that he had poor control over its power. Most of his powers also aren’t truly that unique in comparison to other characters like Shadow who regularly use abilities like chaos control.

I also think generally some statements people make about him being omnipotent in this form are blatant NLF.

People had shown concern on whether he could perform certain tasks in the past
STH 102 pg 24
Likewise for being “omnipotent” his story in the comics still showed him to be fairly unaware of the machinations of the world around him and he pretty much died from being placed into a trap by a villain  and pushing the limits of his powers to far. Heck it was even stated his powers where limited by the fact he had a mortal body once.
STH 124 pg 25
Calling him a reality warper just because he could conjure up some flowers from mid-air is also ridicules.

His only really hax ability in this form was the ability to time travel, which frankly he was totally inept at. One of his attempts at changing history for the better ended with the site of Angle Island being destroyed by an earthquake, another with him accidentally causing Angle Island to fall from the sky and be destroyed. Another nearly caused his race to near become robotic slaves of Eggman.
STH 101 pg 24
STH 102 pg 21
STH 102 pg 23
It’s even mentioned continued use of this power would mess up reality, so I don’t think he would abuse that power anyway.
STH 101 pg 18

Ultra sonic
Background
SCE pg 125
Ultra Sonic is an alternate super form Sonic can access typically by collecting an absurd amount of power rings. The amount needed isn’t clear but according to the SCE it’s in the hundreds or thousands. Several scans from the issues this form appears in also back up this fact.
FC 2011 pg 9
The transformation burns out VERY quickly however, with Sonic only being able to hold it long enough to perform a few attacks. It also leaves him drained if he pushes his abilities.
STH 66 pg 9

Powers
Creating portals between dimensions: FC 2011 pg 21 http://i.imgur.com/Fl7ROIZ.jpg

Mentally constructing shields of ice: STH 66 pg 9 http://i.imgur.com/GMOMroM.jpg  

Uses powers to construct a shield of granite: STH 66 pg 11 http://i.imgur.com/bbHVtfZ.jpg

Sonic can also gain this form through the use of a super emerald. Said emerald can also alter his form farther based on the environment: STH 71 pg 15 http://i.imgur.com/LKfR3XJ.jpg

Some scans refer to ultra sonic’s abilities as a mastery over atomic particles.

Feats
Runs around the planet multiple times when he has the added power of a super emerald: STH 71 pg 16 http://i.imgur.com/eNemixq.jpg

Thoughts
Personally I can’t help but think Ultra sonic is highly over hyped. The SCE refers to the power of that form as “elemental” magic. One of the CSE pages even compares it to the character Nuagus’s elemental powers.
CSE pg 124
Ultra Sonics abilities were probably based around the same principles as Nuagus’s given that, and Naugus’s powers are mostly limited to manipulating more contemporary elements like fire, water, air, and earth. For that matter Nuagus’s powers seem to be limited to inorganic matter outside his own body, as he could never use his crystallization magic on normal people outside specific circumstances.
SCE pg 91
STH 225 pg 9
Ultra Sonic’s feats also aren’t that great or expansive. I mean all he’s done is make some water and move some rocks and people act like he’s a godamn fusion between avatar Aang and Bill cipher. I mean granted he can run around a planet multiple times in a few seconds, but that’s not far beyond the abilities of supersonic. It’s also very likely and implied the added powers and properties of the super emerald are what allowed that specific feat to happen.

For that matter Sonic fought in this form a grand number of 1 time (which he forgot about shortly after due to amnesia brought out from exhaustion when the form burnt out) and has said outright he’s not that familiar with it. The stipulations needed to take on the form and the actual time limit is also pretty severe. I mean hundreds or thousands of rings for barley a few attacks or one teleport? Sure there was the super emerald, but that had special properties, wasn’t really a real emerald, and wouldn’t exist to use as far back as the early 100s. There’s also the fact this form leaves Sonic incredibly drained of power and helpless after major use.

I kind of have to point out honestly that Super Sonic basically runs on magic rings, has many more feats to draw from, heals Sonic after use and frankly lasts much longer even under extreme circumstances. It also has more proven durability. If Sonic has 1000s of rings at his disposal why on gods earth should he use this fairly feats less, un optimized and obscure ultra sonic form, rather than just using his regular Super sonic form for much longer than usual?

Mammoth Mogul
Background
SCE pg 90
A giant mammoth that lived since prehistoric times. He came into contact with a chaos emerald, which he used to give himself vast magical abilities in an attempt to take over the world. After various failed attempts at conquering he partook in a plan to sap the powers from the character Enerjak/dimitri, essentially making himself a god. He got defeated and sealed within the master emerald however.

Further appearances involved him sapping powers from Chaos knuckles and taking full control of the chaos force to become a multiversal threat. Though he was defeated again by Tails and imprisoned once again. The rest of his appearances in the comic are negligible, as he opted out of fighting foes directly when he realized how much of a pain Sonic and co could be.
He has a super form called master mogul.
Powers
Clairvoyance: KTE 7 pg 24 http://i.imgur.com/V7ljCa5.jpg

Energy projection: STH 56 pg 9 http://i.imgur.com/9G3yK5j.jpg 

Can find other sources of chaos energy: STH 56 pg 19 http://i.imgur.com/hy1J0vU.jpg

Telekinesis: STH 163 pg 14 http://i.imgur.com/xP7BZ2a.jpg

Energy shields: STH 164 pg 9 and 10 http://i.imgur.com/TkpCgMS.jpg

Can create telepathic marks on characters he can exploit later: STH 185 pg 9 http://i.imgur.com/HO4J2mq.jpg

Can enhance inherit powers and erase memories: STH 185 pg 10 http://i.imgur.com/uxD5IIA.jpg

Granting enhanced physical strength: STH 185 pg 11 http://en.sonicscanf.org/comics/sonic-the-hedgehog/185/#11

Feats
Survived a combined assault from the super forms of Sonic, Knuckles and tails: STH 56 pg 16 http://i.imgur.com/Mf62lRg.jpg

Could throw angle island: STH 56 pg 13 http://i.imgur.com/SEzzmMf.jpg

Knocked out multiple characters with an energy blast: STH 163 pg 3 http://i.imgur.com/DNt2ald.jpg

Thoughts
Master mogul is probably the closest to being a legit OP character, though honestly it was really only the specific circumstances of taking control of the ENTIRE chaos force that he got that far. In most circumstances in base his powers aren’t that far beyond the normal benchmark for Sonic characters. Even the first time he assumed a master mogul form, well he didn’t really go that over the top in terms of what was capable for super level characters.

It’s also worth noting that until the ancient walkers were destroyed he actually cursed to make misjudgments and lose. Granted that’s sort of PIS, but it did happen.  
STH 162 pg 11


The legitimate feats and what I think about them

So I probably noticed I’ve been quite easily deconstructing tons of feats and characters from Archie right? Well does that mean everything people say about it is bullshit? Well not exactly.
There actually are some legitimate over the top feats, and I’ll can list them for you without much issue.

In STH isu 3 pg 2 Sonic runs so fast he can appear simultaneously on a monitoring screen and in the control room running that monitoring screen at the same time.
In a short strip in STH isu 5 pg 14 Sonic stars in a workout video and claims/demonstrates he can run around the entire planet within 3 or 4 seconds.
In STH isu 11 pg 10 Sonic more or less races an evil version of himself across an entire planet within a fairly short time span.
In SS Sonic blast pg 18 Sonic claims he can move twice the speed of light. Granted nothing actually backs up this statement in the comic itself, but her I’ll give it to him.
In issue 0 of the original mini series a comic strip claims he can move 30% faster than the speed of light.
and finally this feat again. Sonic claims he’s faster than light and beats up his own shadow in STH 7 pg 14.
So yeah Sonic does have some legitimately over the top feats in Archie comics. HOWEVER there’s a glaring problem with all of these. Particularly the era all the feats take place in and the context behind them.
Almost all of these feats are from either the original mini-series or the FIRST 12 issues of the comic. A time where as I’ve explained previously was full of 4th wall breaking, toon force and had a completely different tone than the modern run of the comic. Many of these feats also aren’t even from actual full length story’s either, but just one shot/page strips in-between them.

The only exception here is Sonic blast, which is still technically on the fringe of that less serious beginning era and doesn’t actually have any feats to back it up outside a statement.

Considering this I have to ask WHY ON GODS EARTH should a nearly 24 year old comic book be held back so much from vs debating based on the contents of its first year!!? It’s not like the more modern books haven’t show how inconsistent these feats are either.
STH 175 pg 17
STH 175 pg 18
This is by FAAAAAAAAAR the most over the top feat Sonic has ever displayed on his own in his base form in the modern run of the Comic. He runs across a country length(probably around the size of the USA) in what was probably a few seconds. In story Eggman who had been studying sonic for his entire life(to the point where the suite he used in that fight was specifically made to counter him) and even his calculations note that speed was way more than he thought Sonic capable off. Likewise this was not something done causally on Sonic’s end, this was literally him pushing himself to the absolute limit of his abilities and pushing himself for further than he ever had before.
And it still isn’t even close to any of these feats he pulled off causally in these early issues.

Implications of planet level power
So to end off all the deconstruction. There is implication that some super forms in Archie have planet level strength. However these have almost always been statements and not feats in themselves.
STH 196 pg 16
MM 52 pg 10
STH 184 pg 7


Common complaints and questions about Archie Sonic

Q: Archie sonic is too different from other Sonic media to use in vs debates!

A: Eh kind of? Something people tend to forget is that between 1991 and 1999 there wasn’t actually a lot of story in sonic games (this didn’t start changing until Sonic adventure came out). Likewise the western media for Sonic in the early days was often based on the weird ass American made Sonic bible. Because Archie comics also took inspiration from a Sonic media inspired by said bible, the general tone and foundation of the world ended up being much more deviant than what Sega eventually came up with when it consolidated the Sonic brand more globally.

Of course that being said even then the comics did occasionally have tie ins with the games and the current author Ian Flynn did try to bring Archie more in line with the main games during his run in the pre-reboot timeline. Not to mention post genesis has been totally retooled to basically be the main game universe, except with some more important comic events having happened during that same timeline.

I’ll also note that certain elements of even Jap Sonic media have deviated from the norm to an extent. Sonic X having two parallel worlds, the OVA taking place on some floating piece of continent above a post apocalyptic earth. The general supporting cast of both those media. 

Heck I’d note the currently relevant and highly endorsed cartoon Sonic boom isn’t like the main games at all, with almost no concepts being taken from there.

Archie isn’t much more deviant in comparison and frankly as long as the characters have the same general personality and powers, I’d don’t see why it should be ignored.

Q: Death battle never uses Archie in sonic fights?

A: This is actually a myth. Almost every character had some information or screens taken from Archie comics.

Sonic:
Being a freedom fighter was referenced with a comic scan https://youtu.be/3aq_dOLFmxA?t=173

There was HUGE emphasis placed on how absorbing so many rings made sonic an embodiment of chaos. Something only ever mentioned in Archie https://youtu.be/3aq_dOLFmxA?t=243

1000x multiplied for super sonic was taken from Archie https://youtu.be/3aq_dOLFmxA?t=255

The versions of the Super emerald from Archie where referenced in the verdict https://youtu.be/3aq_dOLFmxA?t=535

Shadow:
Used scans from Archie when talking about him surviving a fall form space https://youtu.be/KV47Il1o-Yo?t=197

He had an ENITRE SLIDE dedicated to the chaos force, a concept that only existed in pre-genesis Archie https://youtu.be/KV47Il1o-Yo?t=202

For the matter of everyone scaling him to Enerjak they had a comic scan of him fighting him https://youtu.be/KV47Il1o-Yo?t=215

1000% super form multiplier taken from Archie https://youtu.be/KV47Il1o-Yo?t=245

Tails:
Backstory taken from comics: https://youtu.be/h1N5moEJx_o?t=291

Referenced he was the “chosen one” by the ancient walkers, comic exclusive characters: https://youtu.be/h1N5moEJx_o?t=308

Being taught how to fly with his tails by Sonic was taken from Archie: https://youtu.be/h1N5moEJx_o?t=343

The great harmony event from Archie was mentioned https://youtu.be/h1N5moEJx_o?t=485

Titan tails and tails saving the multiverse was referenced from Archie: https://youtu.be/h1N5moEJx_o?t=491

Eggman:
Scans from sonic issue 25 were used when describing metal sonic https://youtu.be/qitt0AsCSYQ?t=158

Knuckles:
Scan from clan taken from SCE, when talking about the knuckles tribe https://youtu.be/3581LCnibqs?t=400

Shadow 2:
Black Death, a comic only villain was mentioned as being defeated by shadow as a feat https://youtu.be/W4czQ1Oa-Ns?t=484

So there almost every Sonic character had some amount of Archie comics displayed in their analysis to a degree. Granted in more recent fights the use of the comics has dropped off a bit. Personally I'm not exactly sure why, but I do have some thoughts regarding it. When knuckles entered death battle the comic reboot HAD JUST HAPPENED and Knuckles background/cast had been canablized the most. The fact characters like Knux and Shadow didn’t remember the previous world also probably raised some questions.

Even scaling to the pre-reboot incarnation has some issues, given the characters were recreated to fit the new one down to a molecular/physical level and some concepts their powers were built around in the original don’t exist anymore(the chaos force was written out of the comic for example).
STH 256 pg 19
It’s honestly not that straightforward anymore, and there’s really not enough feats inherently impressive enough to be worth going through the trouble for.

Now to be fair I personally think more post-genesis stuff could be fairly likely to be included in future matches, but honestly given it’s still fairly early on, so it could be awhile before any substantial feats come from it.

Q: If DB included more Archie info X character would have won.

A: Shadow doesn’t actually have any feats of his own from Archie that are super impressive or that would have affected the conclusion of his battles. People saying that normally just scale Shadow to Mogul’s universe feat.

Knux’s alt forms could have technically helped him against DK but to be honest they were both pretty circumstantial. In order to become Enerjak Knux pretty much needs to be mind controlled into being a jackass or willingly become blatantly evil. Neither of those things would have ever potentially happened in his fight.

Likewise Knux gave up his chaos knuckles form and it hadn’t actually made an appearance in the comic since 2003, almost 12 years after Knux’s premiered in DB. Granted they were dormant but how they could re-emerge is a toss-up. Knux’s assumed the form again in a possible timeline, but we don’t get more than one panel of context behind that. He also absorbed plenty of chaos energy or was placed in situations where it would have been useful ALLLLLLLLLL the way up until the reboot, but never took it on again.

On another note the reboot made both of these forms legit not exist anymore in continuity, making arguments to consider them even more convoluted and possibly minute. The fact Knux could barely even control his chaos form anyway is just icing on the cake.

Q: If Archie isn’t so OP how come nobody has noticed for so long?

A: As far as I can tell a few years ago some people took several feats from Archie wildly out of context when compiling them in a verse thread. People bought it and then the reputation of the supposed OP Archie Sonic verse grew out of control. Most people these days DON’T actually read the comic, or question any of the feats. They just parrot what they’ve heard others say and take things out of context. Likewise because so many people consider Archie to be OP based on its reputation alone, discussions about it tends to get shut down, locked or ignored for being pointless before actual progress can be made regarding talking about it.


Final thoughts

Man this blog got away from me. I think it’s probably one of the longest I’ve ever written.
Anyway people who get sick Archie Sonic bashing or people taking scans out of context, feel free to use this as a reference.

To end this blog I’m going to give a quote by who I think is quite literally the only person I’ve seen on any vs debate thread who has caught onto all this before me and outright stated his opinion to those around him. It’s not entirely right, but it’s the closest to a correct deduction I’ve seen about Archie Sonic.



“I feel like everyone who talks of Sonic like he's a cosmic threat has never actually read his comics. While I haven't read all of them, at this point, I can finally say that I've read MOST of them. I've read from all different time periods too.

Sonic gets blown way too far out of proportions on CV. Most of the feats people talk about are from the back pages of his books, and are non-story related. They are short extra pages that were added to his early books, kind of like a weekly comic strip in a newspaper. These usually involved Sonic breaking the fourth wall, and talking directly to the reader. While this doesn't technically make it non-canon, it's hard for me to put very much stock into these feats which were never replicated in the stories that were happening. These feats include the ones like him shadow boxing and him outrunning the light after flipping on a light switch.

Some of his other in-story feats have been blown way out of proportions as well. The feat of him stopping a planet consuming black hole does not make him as powerful as a black hole. What Sonic actually did, was stop the gears that were creating the black hole. While it's still an epic feat, it's nothing near the level of a cosmic powerhouse that people make Sonic out to be because of it.
His other feat that gets blown way out of proportion is the zone busting feat that people claim is him and Knuckles destroying a universe. A "zone" is not a universe in the Sonic Universe. A Zone is roughly city sized. Zones are the levels from the video games, like Casino Night Zone, Emerald Hills Zone, etc.. This hidden zone that they found was never really given a size, but from the art of the issues where him and Knuckles were racing to be the first to collect 50 rings, it appeared maybe city sized. So when Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles collided going all out, both of their powers combined were equal to an arguably city sized power level. One half a city is pretty huge for Sonic, but it's no where near the ridiculous levels people talk of about him being Universal.

On top of all of this, all of these feats have been retconned twice now. The current Archie Sonic is not even the same Sonic from 20, 10, or even 5 years back, and the majority of the feats we see from him on CV are well over 10 years old, if not closer to 20 at this point . After the events of Worlds Collide, all of the characters memories and even their molecular makeup a were altered to fit the new reality that was created. This was confirmed by Eggman. All of the past feats technically still happened, but they happened by Sonic who had a completely different body down to the molecular level. We can't really base a full opinion off of these feats. Their notable, but not really anything beyond that.
People on CV want to believe that comic feats are somehow better then other mediums. After reading well over 100 issues of Sonic now, I can honestly say that his abilities as a combatant are no different then what he is capable of in the video games. Archie has been doing an excellent job of making Sonic very similar to the games, and has been tying in much closer to the games then ever before. Even the old stuff still had him very similar to the games, with the occasional moment where he would run faster then we've ever seen him before.

Even if you want to believe Sonic is capable of cosmic level power, there is still no denying that Sonic is challenged by mid tier characters on a very consistent basis. There are characters that are not even anywhere close to breaking the sound barrier that are able to match Sonic in combat. Characters like Knuckles, Eggman, Metal Sonic, and Mega Man have all given Sonic awesome fights. He was beaten by only half of the Deadly Six, and they are mid tier at best.

My favorite fight of his was against Mega Man, and it was a complete stalemate, with both of them admitting that they didn't think they could beat the other. When the fight took place in Sonic's
universe, Sonic had an advantage with his environment by using loops, and springs to constantly change speeds and direction making himself an impossible target. When the fight was moved to Mega Man's universe, Mega Man had the clear advantage when he had access to Rush and his own home field advantage.

I don't think anyone here will claim Mega Man is cosmic level.

Sonic has faced some Cosmic beings, like Ifrit. When he faced Ifrit though, he had the help of both Shadow and Silver, two characters on par with Sonic's power levels. When Sonic tried to face Ifrit later on his own, he couldn't do anything but be a slight distraction. He needed Silver to come back him up, and even then, they couldn't defeat Ifrit on their own, Silver had to open a portal to BFR Ifrit.
Sonic has faced off against God Sigma, who was not quite God level yet. He was growing towards this level, but was stopped before he made it. This was very impressive of a victory, but Sonic had the entire Capcom universe backing him up, witch characters from dang near every game imaginable like Street Fighter, Ghosts and Goblins, Breath of Fire, Shadow of the Colossus, Mega Man, etc.... Even with all of this backup Sigma was still not going down, so it took Sonic and Mega Man both accessing Super Forms from the chaos emeralds, and it took Mega Man's launching Sonic with a spin dash blast tails invented on his buster, to take Sigma down. It was the power of both Sonic and Mega Man, not Sonic alone. Sonic was unable to hurt Sigma on his own, and Mega Man was proving to actually have the more powerful super form at the time. It's very impressive, but still not the levels of power people on CV talk about. I could easily take scans from that scene, and swing it to make it seem like way more then it actually is, like what has happened so much with Sonic in the past, but that just hurts the image of sonic more then it helps him.

So after that long explanation, I'm not sure he could beat the first round. Sonic's best attack ever shown has been the result of more then his own power, and it's never been beyond about half of a city. Just savage hulk could likely survive this attack, although he would be feeling it hard. One of the more powerful versions of Hulk is just not going down in my opinion.

Sonic is an awesome mid tier character. We just can't forget that he IS mid tier, and it doesn't matter whether it's the game or comic, unless of course you just accept blatant wanking of comic feats simply because they are from a comic.”
On another note don’t even try to start on Sigma in the post-reboot crossover, because I’m totally willing and able to rebuttal it.

Edit: So I kind of feel the need to add this. Sonic is my favorite game character and I did not in fact write this to bash him. I wrote it because I wanted to encourage people I knew to actually talk about Archie in vs debates rather than immediately shutting it down the second it got brought up. I've read the comic for years and honestly I've greatly enjoyed it.

Like seriously people I can't count the number of times I've seen others I don't even know attack me like I'm a asshole or like I'm destroying their way of life just because of this blog. It's also a bit annoying that so many people I see "debunk" my blog by saying it says things it legitimately does not say.I also make a point to say some feats are more defend-able and clarified some thoughts in a second analysis blog of Sonic overall.

Like really. Calm down a bit.

58 comments:

  1. The simple fact that Ian Flynn, the author of the comics, stated in a question and answers session that the super genesis wave destroyed the multiverse, already puts S.Sonic at multiversal+, since the comics stated two times that the multiverse is infinite.

    And S.Sonic was going to revert the effects of the SGW

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    1. http://www.bumbleking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7879&start=105

      /\ Question 30A and 30B

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    2. Infinite universes:
      https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-nnHkaIP6zjs/VzwKpiNosuI/AAAAAAAAHVI/9fO1Aw0d3foRUXsJoqXgHD6R6S8B6eUKQ/w426-h284/archie%2Bmultiverse.jpg

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  2. For once in my life, I actually have an interest in the Archie comics without the fear of becoming retarded. This is honestly the most intelligent Sonic related thing I've seen a long time.

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  3. Most of your info is correct, however...
    -You're wrong about the Quantum Dial. Mecha Sonic (Shard) later on in the series specifically states that Sonic was able to counter a black hole generator, meaning it was a full black hole force, and he was talking about how Sonic cheated death.

    -You said that Sonic was drawn into the time space rift made by the quantum dial, bringing him to his destination. That's clearly not true. Sonic was sent several light years away, and you could see him fall from space. There was no black hole transporting him there, and then again, why would a time space rift open for him in that specific area? Plus, when he returns, and when he has that argument with Sally, he states "I got blown to the other side of the universe". Of course, it could be hyperbole in terms of "other side of the universe" but he was still blown all the way to that distance.
    -You're wrong about Sonic needing machinery in order to reset the multiverse. Sonic actually did it in the finale of the Genesis era, without any usage of machinery. Sonic tapped into Chaos Energy and turned Super Sonic. Then he said he didn't have many options, and he did Chaos Control, and it ended up changing reality back to the way he wanted it to be.

    Other than that, nice blog.

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    1. Thanks for the support!. Do you have an issue number for Shard though. I've looked and I can't find anything. Shard was also MIA/destroyed during that whole time period anyway though(down before the 100s and wasn't operable till the 150s), and I much rather go by what the actual story said.

      Me saying he got blown there is unlikely is based on the fact the machine was supposed to implode not explode. Nicole states that in one of the scans of that section. Him being blasted like that wouldn't be out of the question. He'd just fly through the rift with the force of the implosion causing him to careen.

      I didn't say Sonic needed machinery. I was saying Eggman seems to be able to get certain uses out of singular chaos emeralds on a much larger scale that what living characters can, and that I wasn't sure about machine emerald scaling. Most of that section deals more with how Sonic typically only undoes time/space changes, and typically those caused by chaos energy based means he can potentially tap into or hijack.

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    2. Never mind I found it. That's way to vague STH 246 pg 9

      http://i.imgur.com/vQvGKLI.jpg

      Shard just mentions hearing about something with Sonic and a black hole generator. He didn't actually know what the full story was or the context behind it.

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    3. This was the scan I was talking about by the way. The quantum dial was supposed to Implode.

      http://i.imgur.com/IYhEyQL.jpg

      Likewise if it exploded with the force needed to send Sonic that far the final explosion would have been larger, and obviously would have hit many of his comrades who were fairly close to the machine when it went off.

      All things considered it's pretty much said to be a miracle and a fluke sonic survived.

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    4. Ah, I see...
      But the "implosion" sent Sonic flying several light years away, to another galaxy even. It would be strange for him to just be sucked up and then sent the distance. If it was a black hole, Sonic would've just been sucked up and sent to another dimension at the very least, but he was still in his same universe.
      But regardless, it can still be considered that Sonic had to counter the black hole with a similar amount of power, and the force he used was speed. Countering a black hole that would engulf the solar system seems like a solar system-level feat in terms of speed.

      May I also add that while other people used the Cosmic Interstate, Sonic traveled the entire distance of it, got lost, and returned, all in one day. For others, they probably didn't travel too far, like Sonic did. Also, just to show that Sonic was going at considerably fast speeds in the cosmic interstate, he ended up disrupting the space-time continuum which would destroy reality in the near future.
      https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jwYIeP6108A/Vyk_A7rKRCI/AAAAAAAADPA/QggfMHqYLHItJmj1YsH0SKhGNhHTCfwRg/w506-h745/23.jpg
      Yes, while other people have used the Cosmic interstate, I doubt they went fast enough to disrupt it like this.

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    5. A black hole actually ins't made until the machine spins all the way around. Sonic stopped that from happening hence a black hole wasn't formed.

      http://i.imgur.com/1UbEeGy.jpg

      Sonic used the cosmic interstate multiple times, but it's not really clear or consistent how far you need to go to travel it. In fact on one occasion he was going to use it a shortcut to get to another place on his own planet, which would be weird to say the least.

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    6. To elaborate the machine only starts by making a time/space rift. Hence why I think my theory is more logical with the information given.

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    7. Ah ok, you're correct about that.
      Yeah, it's not consistent on how far you need to go to travel it. I would consider the Cosmic interstate gateways to other universes for shortcuts. However, there are distances in the Interstate that are pretty large, such as the 140,000 light years. You say it's false just because it's in the earlier series, but the numbers are still there, and you'll be surprised at how many things the later comics reference from the classic ones. I started reading the comics from issue #100, and while going through, there were several key events that referred back to as old as issue #3.

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  4. The measurement for vehicles that cross the Cosmic Interstate is made by light years per hour, them crossing the Cosmic Interstate is not very strange, after all the vehicles were made to cross it - http://i.imgur.com/0JAWZDV.png -
    About Blaze, I see no problem with her getting there, after all she is regarded as a "fast" character to the standards of the other characters, so that is side by side with Sonic in Sonic Rush (which served as the basis for her appearance in HQ ). And the encyclopedia even states her speed is comparable to Sonic's:
    http://i.imgur.com/PTIpIqG.jpg


    About the zones, even with this analysis it will not change much about the feat of Super Sonic vs Hyper Knuckles. After all this was a Special Zone for its characteristics as have several Chaos Emeralds and rings of power, and as the HQ defines that this zone was compared to the games - http://i.imgur.com/78oFDlT.jpg - and according to the games of this time the special zones are parallel universes - http://imgur.com/a/s30fv -

    "But the Special Zone was defined as a pocket dimension"

    Yes, if you can check it here - http://i.imgur.com/zKViC9z.jpg -
    As you can see, she is making reference to what is the Special Zone in the encyclopedia, which in this case is what was called in the past of Silence Zone - http://i.imgur.com/VcjQrqT.jpg - ie, is not talking to that was a special zone in the past, but what it is now a fusion of Silence Zone with the Void. I remember that even talking about a pocket dimension , it was not finite - http://i.imgur.com/wTpkIe5.jpg -.

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  5. The main point of that section had more to do with the unreliability of sighs and directions in the cosmic interstate as a whole. Not just that other people had used it. Though even then from that logic Anti- Antoin and Anti-rotor,ect have MFTL reactions even though they clearly do not in the stories they appear in.

    That's not what Eggman meant. The zone of silence originally could grow and merge with other zones if exposed to them. That's a property it had. He didn't mean that it was as big as an alternate reality to start with.

    The encyclopedia also says the zone of silence is a pocket dimension in the profile of the special zone.
    http://i.imgur.com/bi2gre8.jpg?1

    That annotation about action zones comes up for virtually any zone in the comic early on, not just special zone like ones. Chaos emeralds were also said to be able to be found in zones in general back then, not just special zone ish ones.

    http://i.imgur.com/hqMeoCY.jpg

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  6. For that matter the annotations where normally drawing comparisons to main stages in Sonic, not the special ones.

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  7. Blaz also doesn't consider herself on par with Sonic in speed in the comic itself. The SCE is probably talking more about his cuasaul speed.

    http://i.imgur.com/gzNFolT.jpg

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    1. Did Anti Rotor and them cross the cosmic interstate with their own speed, and not by vehicle?

      Regardless, Robotnik stated that the zone itself was not finite, meaning it was infinite.

      Uh, still probably an assumption. Yes, Blaze doesn't consider herself on par with Sonic in speed, but the SCE doesn't state that she is, either. It just said she had speed similar to Sonic's, but Sonic's the "fastest thing alive", so of course she can't be faster. One other thing to note is that we don't know how far Blaze's dimension is from Sonic's, so it's debatable how far she walked.

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    2. It would still be that high in reactions speed, which is way beyond what those characters would logically have.

      It's not what he meant. The SCE outright says the zone of silence was a pocket dimension. The dimension it became was stated to be a pocket dimension. Saying it didn't have finite proportions was him explaining it could potentially grow larger infinitely, not that it was infinity large to begin with.

      I suppose technically ture with blaze, but that wasn't the main point of the argument just a side note regarding that you don't need to be as fast as sonic in general to use the cosmic interstate.

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    3. those motorcycles have nothing stating they were desighned specifically for that travel by the way. Anti-Sonic pretty much decided to take the trip on a whim and he just refers to them as "hogs".

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    4. Well I mean if the motorcycles can go at whatever light years per hour, then that's just how it is. Who knows, Anti-Tails could've made them.

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    5. Nothing suggests that really. Like I said it was also an impulsive trip, and the characters would have had to manually steer them. It's honestly a bit of a stretch and honestly is a reason why I don't think the silly, inconsistent and contradictory sighns shouldn't really be taken super seriously.

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  8. Hello ultraguy. I've created a Screwattack forums account. It's called "God Emperor", and I wanted to ask you if you could activate it for me.

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    1. Sure. Probably gonna run it through abrams first though, so expect it to take a bit.

      Delete
  9. Ultraguy, why is it taking you so long to get my account activated. Account activation shouldn't take 2 days.

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    1. The decision isn't up to me. I've let abrams know, but he needs to make sure you're not a previously banned user or something like that. Your account will only be activated if he approves it.

      Delete
  10. This was actually a fun read giving a bit of a look at the comic's history before the details.
    Thank you for posting this. I wasn't even aware of most of the overhyped Archie feats before reading this.

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  11. Hey Ultraguy, my name (and Screwattack forums username) is Above-All. I have contacted AkumaTH about activating my account, but he has not responded. So could you get a higher up to activate my account for me please?

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  12. Nice blog. Truly makes you realize just how out of context certain things can get. Also the 'SA doesn't use Archie comics' argument can officially die due to a large portion of Amy's victory being attributed to Archie Comics.

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  14. About the Mongul zone feat, wasn't the zone (the Multi-verse Zone, stated by Zonic) was the size of a galaxy to 3 galaxies?

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  15. Jeez this guy is anti Archie Sonic. Here is a better link for much better research and calculations.
    https://plus.google.com/+TheapeXnationapexnationschannelofawesomeness/posts/XC5nBsxsNBB

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  16. In regards to undoing the Genesis Wave, it feels like you kinda ignored the first time Sonic undid it in Sonic Genesis. Unlike Worlds Collide, there wasn't any kind of active Genesis Wave for Sonic to manipulate or control. He just changes things back purely through Chaos Control. He even rewound time a bit so he could save Sally from being gunned down.

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  17. First of all,you complety cherrypicked the fact that the Master Emerald alone which is only 13/14 Emeralds could destroy infinite universes as studied by Dr. Droid who knows more than you & the Great Harmony was countless Emeralds combined into 7.Fiest was able to warp reality how ever he saw fit & A.D.A.M who had a Super State of his Own STLL needed Tails & Shadow to summon all the Emeralds to the spire,that alone debunks your theory that machines are superior to Living beings when it comes to Chaos Energy,Verti-Cal & Horizont-Al were destroying other zones in their battle & they were fodder compared to Scourge,Aurora,Ancient Walkers,Athair, & Chaos Knuckles were all part of a higher dimension above space & time,that puts them all at multiverse+,The Zone Busting feat regardless of Size,if it was a separate Space-time clocks in at High universal,Chaos Emeralds individually can create zones by themselves without the manipulation of machines,Skull Egg zone was also killing 2 universes by simply existing,if A larger zone can be rewritten by an single Emerald than I bet Serveral can be destroyed with 7,Sigma was fusing Space-times with his Unity engines & feeding off of them as evident with the unified world,The Qauntum Dial still left an enormous hole in Mobius,the explosion inverted only affecting Sonic,& he tanked it,Snively was complety unaware of the Omega Wave hitting the Control room,The billionth Ring aura Summoned Sonic out of nothingness when he passed out,no one else ever mentioned such an event occuring to them,Enerjak Was part of the Chaos force & was So powerful that Aurora & the ancient Walkers could only scatter his essence across said higher dimension,Dr Finitevus completed 2/3 of Tikals prayer before he was interrupted by Sonic meaning Enerjak was only reduced by 1/3,the prayer emits enomous amounts of chaos energy during The docs battle with Knuckles,Ixis Who was introduced recently in the post-SGW lore was said to have been "sealed by Chaotic forces that shaped the universe" that alone implies that the Chaos Emeralds are universe level,also on a semi related subject,DK's moo feat was as toon force as it gets,yet you say that it's "a hopeless battle fo Knuckles" & fight so hard to say early archie feats aren't legit for the same reasons.

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    1. ....Ok

      People do realize that I don't hate sonic and didn't make this blog to bash on the character right?(I'll totally defend your right to try and pose counter arguments, but there's no need to be super defensive).

      Also what does Dk vs knuckles have to do with anything?(not to mention I myself didn't even know the result of that fight until it aired, giving my status at the time).

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    2. Tbh on that note when did I ever say anything about knuckles vs DK to anybody?

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  18. Unless theres another Ultraguy Screwattack,you posted a lengthy response about how DK wins with ease on someones prediction page a couple years ago.That's kinda off topic anyway

    there are things that can be counter argued like how if Emeralds passively create Zones by themselves than reality can be changed by Chaos Control & how those who ascended to the Chaos Force Are stil greater Than Mogul since he also had "a mortal coil" & was never incorpreal like Aurora,Enerjak, or Ancient Walkers,if he truly took the CF over he would have been High-complex Multiversal according to dimensional scaling,however he did mortally wound the Ancient Walkers with the last of his power after he was released from the Master Emerald,which leads me to belive that the Standard Super State is & has always been multi-universal/multiversal since they traded blows with him while he had 12 emeralds,Chaos Knuckles scales to Enerjak for the most part Since Dimitri tells him That he simply has to concentrate to time travel & that's the ONLY thing he didn't try as Enerjak,You also made no mention about Feist & how he warped The Zone of silence with ease when in possesion of the Emeralds or Al & Cal were causing grand destruction to other zones with their battles & where implied to be inferior to Scourge in Zone jail,but there is an elephant in the room & Something I see as kinda a paradox,if a Chaos Emerald is infinite,The number is moot,like when the emeralds where fused into 7 there was no need for any others & Feist wouldn't limit his own power anyway,Ian Flynn stated "there is nothing more to gain when you have everything",but the the Master Emerald is 13/14 emeralds & is Superior to any Chaos Emerald,but logically post-Great Harmony Chaos Emeralds should logically be more powerful than that, Sabre & Lock mention that an emerald can be mastered & it seems that such mastery was accomplished by Sonic & co. since the introdcution of Chaos Control,I believe the Zone busting was legit because it was a seperate space-time continuum from the prime zone & doesn't contradict the "infinity" & "limitless" properties of Chaos emeralds,but that feat shouldn't be used to measure Post-Chaos Control/post-Great Harmony Super States as they are & more experienced,even Sonic gained a postive energy aura after using the form few times & his billionth ring aura can be put into play when it comes to his base durability,speed, & attack potency,since power rings are "Bio enhancments" as evidenced when even Antoine used one amp his sword & cut through an Egg-robo with ease,or when Sonic & Knuckles Busted a hole in reality & even briefly staggered Master Mogul with only a few rings on their arms,I know different writers either forget or omit such events or attributes but if you look at the whole picture & logically factor in the properties & attributes of certains events,characters,& objects,these characters are OP & this is coming from someone who has read every page of archie Sonic including universe,specials,mini-series,FCBD etc.


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    1. ........I personally don't see why you would care at all about that(much less hold a grudge for it, given it was so long ago and I don't even know you).

      Anyway I'm pretty sure the zones the emeralds have on one or two occasions spawned on their own where pocket dimension zones, not full on alternate realities. Likewise the zone of silence is only the size of a pocket dimension, and fiests abilities abilities seemed to only extend within it. For that matter nugus was already able to control it near entirely even before the chaos emeralds got dumped there.

      On that matter I never fully discounted sonic's reality warping possibility. I mentioned it in my actual analysis of him and said outright it was one of the more defend-able feats in this blog itself.

      The positive aura thing has been around since sonic adventure and I also did mention the ring aura thin in my actual blog on Sonic.

      Sigma was fusing planets from alternate dimensions together and feeding off there power,not entire dimensions.

      The prayer lock was using was to break the hex on the master emerald that mind controlled Knuckles into becoming susceptible to being possessed by enerjak. It was not to weaken him.

      The quantum dial does not create a black hole until it finishes it's entire rotation, which sonic stopped part way through. Sonic did survive the implosion, but I don't see how exactly it's quantifiable.

      Admittedly I haven't thought of how Al and Cal potentially factor into anything, but I'll take a look at that myself at a later date.


      Also just no on anything regarding the ultimate annihilator. The comic encyclopedia outright says Sonic safely blipped out of existence with the rest of the world and that snively sabotaged the machine to only hit robotnik. It was explained that way in the comic itself as well. Even the knuckles comic says that's what happened.

      http://i.imgur.com/a92OGfi.jpg?1


      Anyway no offense but I think you're taking this way to seriously. I'm always willing to support people posting counter arguments and heck disagreeing with the outcomes of DBs, but this is a bit much. It feels more like you're pissed off and want to take anger out on me. I'll probably look into your inquires at some point, but I'm probably not going to keep this discussion going much longer.

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    2. Actually on second thought making that assumption about you is probably rude of me. You have to understand though I've read posts before of people hating this blog, myself or DB a lot so I get kind of tired and numb to it after awhile.

      Delete
  19. I will say that there is inconsistencies with the lore,if the Chaos Force is Supreme,than Dr. Finitevus couldn't hex Enerjak or Mogul couldn't harm The Ancient Walkers,if Super Emeralds are superior to Chaos Emeralds,than modern Super Sonic/Perfect Chaos are superior to Ultra,Polar,Eco,Solar Sonic,if the Master Emerald is Supreme as 13/14 emeralds combined,than post Great Harmony Chaos Emeralds should logically be superior,I guess Flynn's statement about infinity can be interpreted many ways.

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    1. Finitivus didn't hex enerjak. Enerjak has the ability to posses echidnas who typically display some form or arrogance or mental weakness. Finy placed a hex on the master emerald to mind control knuckles, so he would become susceptible to being controlled by enerjak. That's how the the form works. You can see so in his data profile.

      For the record different entities and characters do in fact have different mysteries and ability to use the chaos force. Not all are equal. The case during Moguls second attempt to utilize it though is that zonic specifically points out that knuckles actions in a previous arch caused an imbalance in the chaos force outside of the norm, which allowed Mogul to seize full control of it. It wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances.

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    2. The only true weakness I've seen in Chaos Energy users are syphons like he Sword of Acorns or the Chaos Syphon,they have destroyed Emeralds,drained Enerjak,killed The Ancient Walkers,drained Perfect Chaos,Even Captain Metal recently started to drain energy from Blaze,& Titan Tails drained energy from Master Mogul,like In Sonic Unleashed when Eggman drains energy from Super Sonic,although it seems like very specific Syphons(Chaos Syphons) that take years of studying or higher dimensional objects(Sword of Acorns) forged from the Source of All,other than that ,it seems like infinite beings stalemating eachother.

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    3. Yes,Enerjaks Spirit does possess echidnas,however Finitevus does state "The hex I placed on the Master Emerald binds it to my will.The minute Knuckles tapped into it's power,his intentions became bent to my ideals."implying that he had some sort of influence over enerjak via the Master emerald,meaning Master Emerald>>Chaos Force,but finitevus was a victim to Dark Enerjak & Tikal's prayer existed before the Master Emerald,so it's hard to say who was in control.

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    4. Not entirely true. Silver was able to stun and hurt enerjak by redirecting his attacks back at him. Perfect chaos was reverted back through shear physical force and the final blow was actually a large blow of electricity from a power generator.

      If you take the main series as well, there have been a few final bosses strong enough to damage sonic as well.

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    5. The Ancient Walkers were the greatest masters of the Chaos Force,Mogul was a noob compared to them until He used the Sword of Acorns on Dimitri & gained enough power to harm incorpreal/higher dimensional beings with Enerjaks power,that scales him to Enerjak regardless,yes perhaps He was a God Tier with the entire Chaos Force,but The Master Emerald is still implied to be superior to Enerjak,which is still only 13/14 emeralds,& 3 super States traded Blows with a guy who can seriously damage dimensions higher than himself,I believe most of the powers from the Chaos Force can be accessed via Chaos Control/Tikal's prayer(reality warping).

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    6. Ehh,Silver Only annoyed Enerjak,Archie Perfect Chaos Was connected to a power Syphon that controlled the hidden city's enviornment,& outside of Solaris,Dark Gaia, & Egg Salamander,no one has Damaged a Super State except with Syphon tech Like Big Arms & True Area 53 mech.

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    7. Eh even during master moguls first appearance after draining power from dimitri he was noted to still not have as great a mastery or power as the ancient walkers. It should also be noted that none of the "enerjaks" seen in the series are actually him at full power. Those are just avatars. Heck knuckles power himself as enerjak wasn't infinite and he had to go back to the master emerald for more energy at one point.

      Silver also did in fact cause enerjak to feel pain. Granted it wouldn't have lasted.

      Also I'm pretty sure it was a jolt of electricity that did chaos in, Sonic even mentions that.

      http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZXJVxnST78Y/Vtp6eT5uurI/AAAAAAAALkQ/rJl4AoGhlYk/s0-Ic42/RCO015.jpg

      Anyway I will say this. Trying to find a way to give correlation to the power of the ancient walkers is the best way to go. My issue was more that outside status and plane of existence I saw very few outright feats involving them. Everything is mostly based on the feat from chaos force master mogul, which was gained under specific circumstances and most likely stronger than the first time he used it. Granted I'll take a look at cal and al later, given I hadn't thought of them to a huge degree.

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    8. Anyway I'll probably be gone for a few hours in a minute or so.

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    9. The Sigma stuff was cosmic,the unity engine were
      uniting worlds across space-time,plus When Eggman & Wily stated "reality is our plaything now" & stating that the destabilizations across space-time can be wiped & started anew & that total control gives them such creative freedom,Sigma's power stems reality warping from & Super States were comparable to him.

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    10. Enerjak was drained of his power via enormous Chaos Syphons,like the ones that killed Chaos Knuckles, even Master Mogul was drained twice,once by Dimitri's Chaos syphon & again by Titan Tails,how ever that thing was made somehow bypassed infinity & transferred it to the user,just a theory but maybe he got some source of all from the pool to use in said syphons,since the sword of Acorns is an ancient syphon & the supposed omnipotent of The Archieverse,issue #83 page 17 Confirms Perfect Chaos' connection to huge syphon.

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    11. Take this scailing for instance,The ring of Acorns was a mere by product of The emeralds & it granted a wish for Amy,The Ultimate Annihilator Weakend barriers,destroyed & rewrote Al & Cal's zone & I believe That The Chaos Emeralds even individually are far superior to either,their reality warping/destrutive capacity of are undeniable.

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    12. Just to be clear. I never Denide the reality warping properties of the chaos emeralds. I even said in my sonic blog that his feat with the genisis wave would be the most legitimate way to argue for multiversal power.In fact such powers had been used by some characters in different canons such as the fleetway sonic comic(in fact while some links are broken i'd actually read that, as it elaborates on many of my thoughts on sonic and gives a lot of info on him).

      Anyway I do have a few responses, but I'm still working. I probably won't be able to get on here again until tonight or tomorrow at the earliest.

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  20. Fleetway is the only canon that I'm not that well versed in myself.

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    1. Ok anyway final response.

      I did look into al and cal. The actual nature and extent of they damage they did to other zones was never really clarified. They just mentioned it off hand to scourge and they apparently caused enough trouble to be arrested for it. Their home zone also doesn't follow normal laws of physics and they themselves are supposedly omnipotent while in it(though this ins't fully true given they couldn't maintain mind control on Sonic).

      The unity engines link singular planets across space/time and then combines them feeding that power to sigma. The story explains it this way and eggman/wily explain it that way as well. It's not exactly a power based around reality warping and it wasn't the same tactic as the genesis wave used by eggman/wily in the previous crossover.

      http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-u2ln3mmELQ4/VtpsmlsIwkI/AAAAAAAAJNo/T55Q7iXs7xs/s0-Ic42/RCO020_w.jpg

      http://2.bp.blogspot.com/44eJfdNmCAffPkxCstwFiEYsMScSb4MKpLoNFyjzo3Q6Me2TEDMfN0n_nfJe2p3c-0yx2smC681s=s0

      http://2.bp.blogspot.com/z2ThL2h0R9IcGL4GdH-GuypcdKQgroG0A-JVq2OGylkeB_RknrVjm4v6X7KLscUA2x6GQfGN3jCP=s0

      Sigma's plan was to more or less use portals to travel to multiple different worlds and drain their power, over time becoming unstoppable. That's also where the one page of him being larger than universe people constantly post about him is about. It's a monologue of the kind of power he wanted to achieve(sonic and co sabotaged some unity engines and cut out his power imput, preventing him from getting that far though).

      Admittedly with perfect choas I didn't notice that, but the comic still implies they used the power lines connected to the siphon and generator to damage him, as that was what Sonic lured him into, and Sonic makes a jab at him being shocked by it. It's not totally clear that the plan was to siphon his energy.

      Pretty much every enerjak still maintained some personality traits of the echidna possessed in question(knuckles still had his memories for example, and went out of his way to attempt to spare his friends) and the data profile for enerjak only calls out Finitivus having warped knuckles mind. It's pretty likely Knuckles personality being changed is the reason for that version of enerjak acting the way it did.

      The genesis wave maybe. Like I said it's a bit ambiguous. You could argue in the first two cases Sonic merely took control of the gensis waves still in effect by using chaos control to channel them, but it was definitely implied he could use chaos control to effect reality in the second crossover(even if he technically failed). In fleetway there's also an arch where Eggman drains the power of that medias version of the chaos emeralds and becomes a reality warper, so it's not unheard of(for the record though super sonic never had those properties). That being said I'm not really sure Sonic or in fact anybody else can specifically cause a genesis wave on their own. Obviously Ian wrote the whole concept as an easy way out to reboot the universe after the ken deal, but from a contemporary standpoint a lot of events with villains and heroes(enerjak, mogul, scrouge,ect) would be pis if they could more or less warp reality with no limits while in those forms. It would never be possible for them to have lost. You could argue the nature of that power was something Eggma and Wily specifically developed and hadn't really been seen to such an extent prior. Likewise regardless reality warping falls a bit more on the side of hax than stats.

      And with the ultimate annihilator also maybe. The problem is something like that would be difficult for some people to accept everywhere, and the ultimate annihilators power is basically hax, rather than traditional destruction.

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    2. Now for the record I do think people take this blog way to far. I myself have said in the past or on other sites that that there's a feat of sonic moving in like a femoesecond in comic I like better than the cosmic highway, and that I only brought up distinction in tone for early archie in case people wanted to make that distinction(obviously for a full composite it would still be fair game). Likewise I do in fact think some feats like the gensis wave would be the best way to make sonic multiversal, and I never had much an issue with people doing so. I've mentioned at least some of this in my actual sonic analysis blog.


      tbh though on the up and up, I can't fully expect everyone to agree on the exact same thing and to be clear I never had the intention of making this blog for the sake doing that. Vs debating is honestly a bit more subjective than people like to admit from site to site and person to person. I kind just wanted to point out that outside the few feats that clearly had some out of context aspects, it's not impossible for a person to contest a few other things depending on there own personal standards(and ironically different parts of this blog have been used in different ways, sometimes in contexts I hadn't exactly anticipated).

      Anyway I don't really have the time to keep going back and forth for to long, but I hope we can be friends and all that jazz. I did enjoy talking with you and hearing your thoughts anyway and will keep them in mind(or see what a few others think for that matter).

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  21. Look what has happened to archiesonic.blogspot.com, it's gone because privacy is going to be a thing of the past and we'll be doomed.

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